Republicans continue their fight to save tax favours for corporations and the wealthy

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SushiSioux
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Republicans continue their fight to save tax favours for corporations and the wealthy

Even RR And GHWB had the good sense to raise taxes in times of troubles. Current generation of leaders sadly lacks  any desireable traits.

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Republicans specifically are concerned about a push to let the Bush-era tax cuts expire for top earners. 

Edited by admin on 11/08/2014 - 05:23
stephanie
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Moved to Politics

I've moved this into the Politics forum. Partisan political opinions should be put there, and then people are welcome to duke it out as much as they wish (within reason of course)! :-)

PS We will be getting our volunteer moderators set up soon.

rassillon
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Taxes should be lower

I didn't ask for the current government and its oppresive system and useless handouts.

Here's a thought, if you think more tax should be paid, write a check and volunteer it to the government. Why don't all those who think higher taxes are needed just give more....why...because you want the thugovernment to force "someone else" to pay.

cris
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Taxes should be FAIR

Those who argue against raising taxes usually make some form of argument as given in the post above:

"Why don't all those who think higher taxes are needed just give more....why...because you want the thugovernment to force "someone else" to pay."

But you forget the three important words at the end: THEIR FAIR SHARE

It just doesn't make sense or seem fair that anyone should expect the sacrifice to be shared only by the middle and lower classes -- the ones who are affected most by spending cuts.

There is no valid reason for tax cuts to be extended to large corporations and to the upper class individuals.  The experiment has not worked: we have tried that for a decade and there has been no trickle down, no "creation of jobs".

rassillon
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Fair Share is a logical fallicy

The us is not a country where "fair" is defined as take out of my production and give to someone else. If I choose to fine, it is mine. If you feel because someone is unlucky, lazy, retarded or whatever is entitled to something that is mine, and think the state should steal from me by force and give to them, you are a socialist.

There is no fair share, I should be able to opt out of taxes, social security benefits etc.

If you want to pay, by all means, do it. But don't try to gang up on me and steal from me.

And if you want to make the argument about public service like roads and such. First these mostly up until now are financed by inflation and are now in bad disrepair and ony getting worse, exactly what happens when gov makes malinvestment. Second, they should be financed by private individuals when there is an actual need and benefit large enough to prompt voluntary commitment of funds. Free market

Jasper Puddlemaker
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blah blah blah...

"Republicans blah blah blah..."  "Democrats blah blah blah..."   Everyone take your seats.  Republicans sit over here... Democrats sit over there... Good... Now on the count of three all you automatons start screaming and yelling about how your "party" will be the savior of the Republic... One...two...three... GO!!!

Blah blah blah...

cris
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Not Republican or Democrat, but simply right and wrong

To a large extent, Jasper is correct.  The worst problem we have as a nation IMO is the destructive division perpetuated by labels like Republican/Democrat, liberal/conservative, or my personal favorite, socialist/patriot.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

As we can only affect the future however, and not change the past, it is important to point out the fallacy of the argument that supporting the government is "stealing my money", and that the only services government provides are to the "unlucky, lazy or retarded".

Government has important functions. Yes, OF COURSE, spending must be controlled.  But to ignore huge expenditures like defense (a euphemism for unnecessary offensive wars) at the expense of spending on infrastructure or education (or better yet alternative energy) is counterproductive in the long term.

Those who claim the government is stealing their money by taxing them have an extreme viewpoint, and cannot realistically defend the true implications of their argument.  Nor can they typically have a constructive dialogue, as they are slaves to their ideology.  That is NOT the way solutions are created.

SushiSioux
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cris wrote:To a large

cris wrote:

To a large extent, Jasper is correct.  The worst problem we have as a nation IMO is the destructive division perpetuated by labels like Republican/Democrat, liberal/conservative, or my personal favorite, socialist/patriot.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

As we can only affect the future however, and not change the past, it is important to point out the fallacy of the argument that supporting the government is "stealing my money", and that the only services government provides are to the "unlucky, lazy or retarded".

Government has important functions. Yes, OF COURSE, spending must be controlled.  But to ignore huge expenditures like defense (a euphemism for unnecessary offensive wars) at the expense of spending on infrastructure or education (or better yet alternative energy) is counterproductive in the long term.

Those who claim the government is stealing their money by taxing them have an extreme viewpoint, and cannot realistically defend the true implications of their argument.  Nor can they typically have a constructive dialogue, as they are slaves to their ideology.  That is NOT the way solutions are created.

sadly until the "majority/minority" republican and democrat party government theme is dismantled to allow for real dialogue  we america is held hostage by the failure of our political system. (a single senator holds up mining law reform , or any other piece of legislation -why is that possible?)

when michele bachman insists she s pooud to be an american of the john wayne variety -  that blissfully ignores  america had a much higher tax rate during that time =>  

the taxes are stealing line of thought  reveals limitations of maturity that suggests the poster is young and lacking experience.

it is unfortunate to hear / read people say  THESE PROBLEMS ARE TOO LARGE for individuals to address. people in other countries regularly directly engage in actions to  change /challenge their governments.  

When will an american lay down on the road to block  members of congress from  getting to their personal jets?  thats the kind of action politicans understand.  doesn't matter if you have a nifty water filter system , super neato guns, or  6 months food and water   or ear tea bags on your hat.............................

rassillon
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Logical fallacies Ad hominem attacks, Oh My
I am neither a Republican or Democrat, NEVER registered as either.
 
I am a Libertarian with an Austrian view of economics
 
 
(cris wrote)
it is important to point out the fallacy of the argument that supporting the government is "stealing my money", and that the only services government provides are to the "unlucky, lazy or retarded".
 
 
False attribution
It is also important to point out when someone....cris 1.)Pseudo Quotes you and does so out of context 2.) Attributes a partial out-of-context quote as saying something other than it does.
Neither one of your "quotes" are honest or representative of the point I was making. And you know it.
 
 
(cris wrote)
Government has important functions. Yes, OF COURSE, spending must be controlled.  But to ignore huge expenditures like defense (a euphemism for unnecessary offensive wars) at the expense of spending on infrastructure or education (or better yet alternative energy) is counterproductive in the long term.
 
Non-Sequitor, I never said government does not have important functions, defense, sure if it is legetimate, infrastructure...mmmmm that is debatable, education... oh yeah the DoE has done a bang up job there.<sarc>
 
(cris wrote)
Those who claim the government is stealing their money by taxing them have an extreme viewpoint, and cannot realistically defend the true implications of their argument.  Nor can they typically have a constructive dialogue, as they are slaves to their ideology.  That is NOT the way solutions are created.
 
Ad-hominem (round about but still)
No I don't, and yes I can. I am not a slave to my ideology only to reason.
Solutions are brought by individuals not government.
 
 

(SushiSioux wrote)

when michele bachman insists she s pooud to be an american of the john wayne variety -  that blissfully ignores  america had a much higher tax rate during that time =>  
 
Not that I would vote for michele bachman but you blissfully ignore the real world differences of the taxing structure between now and then, reality is that no one actually paid the much higher 
marginal tax rate because income was income and tax deductions were numerous, unlike today where income is broken into different types and not all deductions can be used for all types of income. Or did you just not know that? Go ahead, look it up and see if you can actually find someone who paid that rate.
(SushiSioux wrote)
the taxes are stealing line of thought  reveals limitations of maturity that suggests the poster is young and lacking experience.
 
Nice ad hominem attack there, much easier than actually trying to deliver an intellectual response.
You are wrong on both points and ignore the fact that "I JUST DON'T AGREE WITH YOU", not because I am too young or too stupid to understand.
The United States did just fine before we had a federal tax. Can there be a tax, sure, but it needs to be extremely limited and not burdensome.
Do we really need nearly 55,000 pages of tax code? 
This does not even address the hidden tax of inflation.....that just happens to be the governments fault too
 
You cannot come up with a real solution if you start from the point that "we can fix everything" (this is not meant to be a jab)
Facts are 
1.) People die
2.) Life sucks sometimes
3.) Life is not fair
 
Why don't we just have a world government and since even the poor in america are rich compared to the poor in africa we can tax them too and send that money to africa to pay for their food and health issues, every old person in africa should have a lark because that is only FAIR! Sure I took that point to the extreme, to make a point. What we need are people who are more self-reliant so that the government is not expected to step in and a free market environment which doesn't trap people in poverty like the current highly regulated environment does. I am a very competent and well compensated IT professional, because I work hard, harder than the next guy. To use lessons learned from the IT field. We don't need a single point of failure (government/katrina) we need many nodes which can function independently.  Don' t take this that I am religious but the lesson that if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish you feed him for a life time is salient.
 
 
SushiSioux
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Nice ad hominem attack - rassillon you are typing nonsense

the first line of defense for """"libertarians""""" and psuedo intellectuals around the world is to claim they are being attacked- ad hominem  (oooh!!)   i dont care which school you went to, if you handle snakes to prepare to speak to your god. or that you are a """"well compensated IT professional""" Rassmillon::: you are typing nonsense.

there are a lot of people in the world you cant explain things to them until something happens to them ( you see them at anti  globalization events, lines for iphone releases, christmas shopping, tea party rallies).  i dont know what that something is  that needs to happen to the person.  you just have to deal with them on their levels. and pray that something happens to them soon. 

when you are ready to either 1) put down the big books or 2) put down the big books and take your head out of the clouds.  Rassmillon you will see the sillyness in what you are typing. 

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And if you want to make the argument about public service like roads and such. First these mostly up until now are financed by inflation and are now in bad disrepair and ony getting worse, exactly what happens when gov makes malinvestment. Second, they should be financed by private individuals when there is an actual need and benefit large enough to prompt voluntary commitment of funds. Free market

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poor people in america are better off than the poor in Africa

--------------------------------------------------------i'm not a libertairan  with interest in 4th century chaise lounges.    i m simple and stupid.  what you've typed is fails to appreicate history of america/successful advanced civilzations and engages in self reliant exceptionalist  sophistry thrasymachus would admire.

lottiedah
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off topic, for stephanie

I just checked out your website.  Enjoyed it.  I laughed so hard for your comment about gay men.  Thanks for the suggestion, I'm going to test your theory.  wink

Glad to see there are others trying to understand this journey, too.  I appreciate your sharing.

http://awareness.tk/

Be blessed.

rassillon
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SushiSoux, nonsense is all you

Instead of making wild generalized claims, make some specific points that can be debated/agreed with/disagreed with/ or agree to disagree.

Your suggestion that I just don't get it because I am reading "big books", have my "head in the clouds", or "something needs to happen to me" is silly. Make a flippin point. It would help if you try to give some facts to back it up.  Outside of that you are just a delusional blowhard.

Facts are a human requires a certain number of calories to be consumed to continue living. Those calories have to be collected by someone. No matter how you try to get fancy, nothing in this world is free. Any person or group entrusted with the production of others must be tightly constrained and closely watched. Humans by nature get fast and loose with other peoples stuff (greed and corruption). It is no mystery why it exists in all governments. Giving more taxes to a government which has shown itself to be incompetent self-serving and corrupt is STUPID.

SushiSoux

what you've typed is fails to appreicate history of america/successful advanced civilzations and engages in self reliant exceptionalist  sophistry thrasymachus would admire.

See, here you make a wild claim (what specifically don't I appreciate?), but you are in fact wrong. The history of america proves my point. It was the free market and lack of government intervention that allowed the US to become so productive. You just don't understand how much more secure the social support was for people when the government isn't involved. Community based support met the needs of individuals much better and without being killed with taxes and wealth killing inflation people would give money/labor/goods on a voluntary basis much more than now. Government F'd that all up.

SushiSioux
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good luck rassmillon.

See, here you make a wild claim (what specifically don't I appreciate?), but you are in fact wrong. The history of america proves my point. It was the free market and lack of government intervention that allowed the US to become so productive.

 that statement indicates you have no clue about american economic history.  federal government investments in  the louisiana purchase, exploration of the NW territory, canals, railroads, highways, the tennessee valley administrationm, even,,,,,,,,,, the internet----  all of these have enjoyed significant federal backing/support.  im willing to bet the IT industry relies on intellectual property rights enforced through the federal  government.

You just don't understand how much more secure the social support was for people when the government isn't involved. Community based support met the needs of individuals much better and without being killed with taxes and wealth killing inflation people would give money/labor/goods on a voluntary basis much more than now. Government F'd that all up.

good luck rassmillon. there's nothing that can be done for you until you se the world differently.

Dyhalto
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Just my two cents tossed into

Just my two cents tossed into a heated argument...

But what exactly is your point, Sushi? rass' stance is clear as a bell, and very right. Nothing you say seems to have any substance =\

stephanie
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Thank you

Thank you very much, Lottiedah! Much appreciated! :-)

As for the rest of this thread...at the risk of getting too political here, I wanted to comment on the following:

I truly believe that the most enlightened form of government would be a libertarian one. This is because it would be based on the notion that people are inherently good, evolved and capable of governing themselves. I love the libertarian theory of non-aggression. It basically states that you do not coerce or force someone to do something for someone else, because aggression is wrong. This includes forcing someone to do what you might think is the right thing for someone else. The only proper use of force is to stop someone else from using unlawful force against someone.

Taxes are by their very nature, coercive, and in my ideal, idealistic world, we'd not only abolish taxes, but make the entire government funded by donation only. Those that want to fund the military would do so. Those that want to fund education would do so. Corporations would have incentive to donate because they would be known as "good citizens" for doing so.

Now. We live in the "real" world and I don't think we are "evolved" enough yet to handle true liberty. So I feel a hybrid government is best right now. And I also tend to be less libertarian when it comes to things like regulating nuclear power or public transportation.

That said, I feel we need to find a way to bridge the divide between right and left. One thing is to remind people that they don't need to achieve *everything* through the government. You can, for example, be a collectivist right now, in our capitalist society. I have a good friend who is an avowed communist. He's an old hippie. He wants everything to be like a commune. He lived on a kibbutz in Israel and likes that lifestyle. I told him, "This is America. You are free to do what you want. If you want to live in a communal environment, then join one or start your own. Don't force it on me, that's all."

He is starting his own little community. This is what he wants. And that's the beauty of America - we have the freedom to choose.

So does it need to be either-or? Why get so angry because others have a different idea of government than you? And why not create those social structures in alternative, creative ways? If you want to see universal health care, start up a non-profit and give away health care for free. If you want to see better education, then volunteer or give money or start an organization. If you hate corporate greed and worker exploitation, create a worker-owned company. They do exist here and now.

Yes, the federal government has done some good things, but it's also done a lot of bad things. Since we don't control our taxes and they are taken from us, they are used for a lot of things we might disagree with, whether that's welfare that keeps people disempowered or military spending. We have to take the good with the bad if we are funding a large federal government.

But the bottom line is this: Whether or not the federal government has done good things in the past, it is broke now, and likely to implode. Either that, or it will turn into a very horrible, oppressive beast if we don't watch out and protect our liberties from incursions like the Patriot Act (which was an issue with the left under Bush now sadly forgotten under Obama).

Arguing over Democrats vs. Republicans isn't really productive, because both major parties are to blame and both have corrupt leaders. (There are good guys on either side, of course.) We are all going to have to pull up our shirt sleeves and do it ourselves. It's what I call "DIY Government."

PS The Internet, by the way, wasn't just a federal government project. It was a MILITARY project and evolved out of "ARPANET" - the whole purpose of the distributed network model was to have a network that would not be taken down if one area was destroyed in a nuclear strike. So the Internet came out of the Cold War and the Department of Defense, and had we not been funding war and the military, we might not have the Internet. Which just goes to show you, nothing is black and white, and many things are double-edged swords. 

rassillon
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Picking Cherries is fun huh?

SushiSoux wrote

 that statement indicates you have no clue about american economic history.  federal government investments in  the louisiana purchase, exploration of the NW territory, canals, railroads, highways, the tennessee valley administrationm, even,,,,,,,,,, the internet----  all of these have enjoyed significant federal backing/support.  im willing to bet the IT industry relies on intellectual property rights enforced through the federal  government.

You make the mistake of picking out things that you view at this point as successful government expenditures. What has to be done is look at the whole of all government expenditures and see if the balance is positive or negative. 

To counter I would say, the civil war, vietnam, korea, nasa, the current wars in the middle east, bailouts, hawaii, killing indians who wouldn't go to reservations. reservations , you see where I am going? If something has REAL VALUE someone or group will risk their capital to do it when it is the right time. Oh and if we didn't have stupid intellectual property rights technology would be leaps and bounds further along, this is why linux is a much better OS than windows. I support Open Source. So do I have a clue now or can you only see out of one eye?

Nothing can be done for me? Actually nothing NEEDS to be done for me because I can do it MYSELF.

SushiSioux
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rassillon - would love to do businewss with you

No you don't get it on too many levels is plain to see. you are either a beast or a god, but certainly not a human with basic understanding of how the government of these united states has helped this country grow through prudent and not so prudent investment nor how business is facilitated in a very well interconnected globalized world.  Good luck with  your autarky policy. 

The United States since 1980 (The World Since 1980)

ECONned: How Unenlightened Self Interest Undermined Democracy and Corrupted Capitalism

and because  he deserves the pixels:

Gentleman Boss: The Life of Chester Alan Arthur

rassillon
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All crust no meat

I understand how it "helped" I understand more importantly how it has hindered. I also understand international business..... i.e. why China Brazil and India are growing richer while the US etal are growing poorer. Open your other eye.

I guess I am a god since you are in obvious ecstasy earlier in the thread while writing my name since you misspelled it rather consistently ;)

Should I rebut your extra large font links with links of my own with an even bigger font?

This is not a book club, make a concise point or give it a rest.

SushiSioux
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actually rassillon

I dont see very well so if i typoed our name  it wasnt intentional. 

these forums are to exchange ideas.  and people wonderfully exchange information books thoughts.   Turd has created a community here that  will in its small way lead to a more perfect union at home and abroad. please feel free to list a book or two.

enjoy your fourth Ras

rassillon
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My Bad

Sorry for the jab then, I did not know about your eyesight issue.

I can recommend Peter Schiffs "How an Economy Grows and Why it Crashes"

http://www.amazon.com/How-Economy-Grows-Why-Crashes/dp/047052670X

It is the first book I bought using my new kindle. It is light reading but I think most will enjoy it.

Sushi, you have a wonderful weekend and 4th too!

HiHo Silver
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You are so right. If higher

You are so right. If higher taxes are the answer, then lets raise them to 100% so we can have all the maximum benefits. Why pussyfoot around?

And how is it Obama's pal, Jeffy Immelt, CEO of GE, his company paid ZERO in US taxes last year ?  Didn't John (I'll evade my state yacht tax) Kerry tell us that paying taxes was patriotic?  And wasn't there total agreement by Timmy Geithner and Charlie Rangel and Tom Daschle and Kathleen Sibelius?  Which raises another interesting question; The Obamas are in the 35% bracket yet paid only 27% in tax by using all those crazy tax loopholes.  Shouldn't the hypocrite in chief  have been the first to pay every cent he owed and contribute a little more? I mean he is for the little guy after all? Right? How he fuck do you help the little guy by cheating him out of your money?

Oh, and if 100% is too much how the fuck do you decide what is the right amount? Maybe YOU are the one who is wrong. You're too high. Its possible.

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