Catching Up With Andrew Maguire


Earlier today, Andy and I finally got a chance to visit and get caught up. He's been traveling the world working tirelessly on our behalf and this was the first chance we've had to speak in weeks. After a tumultuous year in the metals, and with 2017 promising even greater volatility, what a great time to get Andy's thoughts on what to expect in the new year.

Andy hits multiple points during this call and addresses a wide range of issues including:

  • Chinese and Indian physical demand
  • The ongoing price manipulation lawsuits and additional legal action in 2017
  • Why mining CEOs have been reluctant to join the fight against The Banks
  • How the ABX is adapting to offer an alternative to producers
  • The possibility that Banks are using GLD gold to arbitrage the price difference vs Shanghai
  • And much, much more.

Please be sure to give this podcast a thorough listen and thanks again to Andy for all of his efforts to finally free the world of precious metals from the shackles of Bullion Bank price manipulation.



Dec 22, 2016 - 1:53pm

two things

First of all, your host is a bit under the weather today so I felt my performance was sub-par. My apologies.

And whenever Andy and I speak via Skype, we are always plagued with connection issues and today was no different. I've tried to edit this audio as seamlessly as possible to connected the blank spaces but you'll no doubt notice some discontinuity. Again, my apologies.

Dec 22, 2016 - 4:24pm



Dec 22, 2016 - 4:26pm

First no second

Love to listen to Andrew.

TF Metals fan
Dec 22, 2016 - 4:29pm

great surprise!!

Thanks Craig & Andy

Dec 22, 2016 - 4:30pm

Reposting positive signs from end of last thread

I have been a pm stock player for the last 20 years. I have made good money and lost more. Nevertheless I feel 2017 is looking like a good year. I detect positive signs all over the system.

1. US dollar has probably peeked and is making lower highs.

2. Similarily USd/JPY has probably peeked as above.

3. S&P has peaked and is making lower highs.

4. Ala Turd HUI and miners have bottomed and are holding up well.

5. According to Harvey Comex is showing huge runs on gold.

6. Duchebank settlement has exposed the manipulation and the lawsuits should expose more.

7. Price differential between Comex and Shanghai exchange is growing and should result in arbitrage situation very shortly.

8. The ringleader of the manipulators, JPMorgan is short the most silver derivatives but according to Ted is long a humungous amount of physical and will make a fortune once they cover their shorts.

9. Trumps cabinet seems to be gold friendly, altho once they find out there is no un-hypothicated gold left in the US they may have to play nice with China to borrow some.

10. From the much mocked KWN, Jason Goepfert at SentimenTrader: “No reason to buy gold, either. Sellers have been persistent in “fear trade” assets, with gold bearing the brunt of it. The GLD fund has seen demand dry up so much that the number of ounces of gold it holds has declined or stagnated for 29 days. In the fund’s history, there have been 8 streaks that matched this, all but one leading to rallies…

I am sure there are many more positive signs members can see but it is enough that I am all into the pm's and plan to add some Silvercorp tomorrow.
Dec 22, 2016 - 4:42pm

Lucky 7?


Mr. Fix
Dec 22, 2016 - 5:00pm


Okay, we know Craig doesn't count, does Mike count once or twice?

Anyway, happy to be here.


Dec 22, 2016 - 5:01pm

Come on 4th

Thanks Mike97 for double posting and giving me 4th. Nice surprise but does that mean no free silver??? Keep Stacking

Really enjoying this podcast really good one and good information and folks I'm 4th Trust Me!!! Don't count Turds post or the double post.

Dec 22, 2016 - 5:02pm


It's been a while for this coveted spot!

Just finished Clive Maund's article, which should put the fear into all of Turdville:

"... The arrival of the cashless society will not only mean that banks will be able to avail themselves of citizens funds as and when they please, it will also mean that the banks, and by extension the government, will know all your financial business, what you do and when. Tax evasion will be impossible, and eventually you will not be able to do business with companies that are not approved of by the government.

With the escape route into cash set to be blocked off, that leaves Precious Metals, gold and silver, gold as a store of value and silver more for everyday transactions. Gold bugs and others, especially survivalists, and many wealthy investors see this as THE way to escape the rapacious grasp of the banks and the government, and are busy squirreling away fortunes into overseas vaults etc. However, it is unfortunate that if you can think of this, so can they, so can the banks and the government, and they have plans for you and your gold hoard. Remember, their power is absolute, no-one dare stand up to them and they can and will do what they like, changing the law as required to suit their purposes. They are much more powerful than President Roosevelt, who in the 1930’s, in an act of naked piracy, seized the gold of US citizens, and furthermore their modern powers of surveillance and tracking are much more sophisticated than anything back then. Thus we can expect governments to declare the holding of gold (and silver) to be illegal, and to demand forfeiture to the government in exchange for nominal compensation - resistance will be met with forcible confiscation, heavy fines and possibly prison sentences. Vendors of gold bars will be closed down and mints will not sell retail gold. Unlike the 1930’s this be a be a coordinated global campaign, a kind of witch hunt if you will, and there will be no corner of the world that is safe, just as they finished off private banking in Switzerland. Those buying gold and stashing it in various pseudo anonymous remote foreign depositories will be in for a nasty shock as these vaults are arbitrarily raided and plundered, with local and international law being changed as required to facilitate this. Nothing will stand in the way of a system that will not permit alternatives."

Dec 22, 2016 - 5:08pm





Dec 22, 2016 - 5:12pm
Dec 22, 2016 - 5:12pm

clives theory

could be correct, but then think about society if that comes true.

Dec 22, 2016 - 5:32pm

IF you think you can hide your PM purchases

that are not already with cash just look at the 3 year customer records at Coinbase by the IRS....

Merry Christmas everyone!!!!!
Dec 22, 2016 - 5:56pm

Last Smash?

Just a feeling, but this end-of-year smash feels like the LAST and FINAL smash. It seems like there are too many physical fundamentals to keep the paper fraud going. Andrew Maguire is great.

I am fortunate to have discovered TF and this community here in 2016. If indeed this is the "last and final" smash, then I will have already been forewarned and prepared.

What a great opportunity to buy more physs.

Merry Christmas!

AIJ RickshawETF
Dec 22, 2016 - 6:10pm

Clive Fear Porn Bull Shit

The TPTB will NEVER stop black markets. If they attempt this we will have two economies. Bring it. "I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

Dec 22, 2016 - 6:41pm

Thanks Craig

This is a "


Dec 22, 2016 - 6:45pm

I'm with AIJ on Clive's scare pron

To believe "the government" is going to simply confiscate all privately held PM's, easy as that, is just silly. Who, exactly? Which elected representatives are going to throw in with that and risk the massive backlash from private property rights oriented big donors, populist small gov republicans, Ron Paul libertarians, and everyone else who owns gold or gold investments (everyone with a 401k has gold and miner exposure). And most of these people (us) are well armed and would be majorly pissed off at being robbed, and quite uncooperative. Who would back that, the GOP Controlled House? Senate? Presidential cabinet stocked with more gold-favorable people than at any time since before Roosevelt? Total non-starter, at least for the foreseeable future.

This is a nice example of the type of shallow, scare-tactic article one sees at or near bottoms... it therefore cheers me.

Now on to the interview!!! Thanks TF

Dec 22, 2016 - 6:56pm

+1 On Clive Bull Shit

Never will happen, to many freemen not wanting to be slaves and Clive is also missing one crucial thing


Dec 22, 2016 - 7:01pm

First Pinkerton's

then the US Army will confiscate your gold, just as they put down the slave revolt by the coal miners in 1930s Kentucky.

Where theres a bankster's will, there is an army's way.

Dec 22, 2016 - 7:06pm


The Clive article, the rant last week of former poster silver is money and the interview today mentioned by both Andy and Craig that the trolls have disappeared indicate we are bottoming.

Dec 22, 2016 - 7:17pm

Thanks Gents.

I'll guess I'll do my own Eggnog while I enjoy the listen.


AIJ benque
Dec 22, 2016 - 7:30pm


more fear p*** b*******. like our own soldiers are going to go door-to-door robbing its own citizens and friends and neighbors. And let's see the blue helmets try that. Laughable

Dec 22, 2016 - 7:59pm

DB Settlement: Seasonal Intraday Charts Evidence - Manipulation

Deutsche Bank Settlement: Seasonal Intraday Charts Provide Evidence for Market Manipulation

December 22, 2016 | Author Dimitri Speck

Deutsche Bank trader: “u just said u sold on fix.”

Answer UBS trader: “yeah, we smashed it good.”

Deutsche Bank is a defendant in more than 7,000 lawsuits worldwide. In two of them it has recently agreed to settlements and is prepared to pay tens of millions of US dollars in restitution and fines. This includes the settling of lawsuits over gold and silver price manipulation. Associated court proceedings against other financial institutions are still underway.

It has been said that precious metal bars make for good door stops due to their high specific gravity. Perhaps, but as DB has just found out, it also means that stubbing one’s toes on them can be painful [PT].

Photo credit: Perth Mint

Apart from Deutsche Bank, several other banks have been sued in New York over manipulation of precious metals prices as well. Due to a lack of direct evidence, the plaintiffs initially presented statistical evidence. Charts that show average intraday price movements have played an important role in this. How did this come about?

Detecting Market Manipulation with Charts of Average Intraday Price Movements

In 2002 I had the idea to create a chart of average intraday price patterns in order to investigate potential gold price manipulation. For this purpose I used the one-minute intraday prices of gold over a time period of five years and calculated an average of these prices over the course of one trading day.

The chart created at the time is depicted below. It shows the average intraday movements in the gold price from August 1998 to May 2002. The horizontal scale shows the time of the day, the vertical scale the average price level.

The chart therefore shows the typical intraday pattern in the gold price over a time period of more than one thousand trading days, based on millions of individual prices. Thus the chart has a high degree of statistical significance.

Gold, average intraday movements, 8/1998 – 5/2002. The gold price typically declined at the time of the PM fixing in London (10:00 am EST).

As can be seen, the gold price typically fell during the first two hours of trading in New York, particularly at the time of the London PM fixing at 10:00 am EST. Such a regularly recurring anomaly at a point in time at which reference prices are determined represents strong circumstantial evidence of price manipulation.

It furnishes almost conclusive proof if other causes such as statistical outliers can be firmly excluded. Apparently a number of market participants deliberately suppressed prices at the time of the fixing, possibly in order to profit from subsequent transactions tied to the reference price.

The chart shown above illustrated for the first time that the gold price was manipulated at the time of the fixing. It was inter alia published on the internet, where it can still be found today, e.g. here:

Later I conducted similar studies of silver and platinum prices. These also led to the finding that prices were manipulated at the time of the fixing. In 2010 I documented the exciting history of manipulation in precious metals markets in my bestselling book Geheime Goldpolitik (Finanzbuchverlag), which was published in 2013 in English as The Gold Cartel (Palgrave Macmillan).

These studies gained wide recognition in expert circles, but no noteworthy legal or policy consequences ensued. The supervisory authorities were unable to prove that manipulation had taken place.

“Libor-Hunter” Rosa Abrantes-Metz Gets Involved

The situation changed abruptly in December 2013, when Ms. Rosa Abrantes-Metz took up the topic of gold price manipulation in a Bloomberg editorial, with reference to my average intraday price charts.

Ms. Abrantes-Metz had previously contributed decisively to exposing manipulation of Libor. The Libor scandal raised the public’s awareness of the fact that systematic manipulation existed even in very large markets.

Since then events have unfolded rapidly. The fixings were replaced with more modern processes – and numerous lawsuits were filed, in which the method for determining average intraday price movements I have developed is used to provide evidence for price manipulation.

With success, as the settlement agreed to by Deutsche Bank demonstrates. As part of the settlement the bank undertook that internal business communications relevant to the case would be made available to the plaintiffs. So far it has provided 350,000 pages in total, which are going to be introduced as evidence in lawsuits against other banks.

The statistical evidence that has been available to date has now been complemented by direct evidence from these internal records. The first excerpts that have been published confirm beyond doubt that manipulation has indeed taken place.

Gold: Suspicion of Manipulation Continues to Linger

What is the situation these days though? Thanks to the Seasonax app that is nowadays available at Bloomberg and Thomson Reuters, I am able to replicate work that has taken me weeks to complete in 2002 within seconds: namely the creation of precise charts of average intraday price movements.

The next chart illustrates the average intraday pattern in the gold price over the past six months until mid December 2016.

Gold, average intraday price movements from 6/2016 – 12/2016. Gold prices are regularly sliding in early New York trading

As can be seen above, there are no longer any conspicuous price moves at the time of the by now revised fixing at 10:00 am EST. It seems that manipulation of the fixing is over and done with!

Nevertheless, a noticeable price slide still occurs regularly in early New York trading – price behavior that is reminiscent of the time after August 5 1993, when manipulation of the gold price could first be detected.


Systematic manipulation of gold prices has been in evidence for more than 23 years. This is probably a record for a market that is supposed to be free of interventions. The idea was initially mooted by the Fed, which at the time wanted to push down inflation expectations and raise confidence in the US dollar. This was first hinted at in Forbes magazine in 1995, in 1998 GATA was founded with the goal of getting to the bottom of the allegations and statistical evidence for the manipulation of prices has been available since the turn of the millennium – inter alia my contribution concerning the fixing.

The lawsuits filed to date are focused on manipulation of precious metals prices at the time of the fixing as well. As a result of the settlement entered into by Deutsche Bank and the release of the bank’s internal documents a more far-reaching probe has now become possible. Hopefully all parties concerned – including government agencies – will admit to their involvement in gold price manipulation in coming years.

Charts by: Dimitri Speck, Seasonax

Dimitri Speck specializes in pattern recognition and trading systems development. He founded Seasonax and publishes the website, which features free-of-charge seasonal charts for interested investors. In his book The Gold Cartel (published by Palgrave Macmillan, see link on the right hand side), commodities expert Dimitri Speck discusses gold price manipulation and modern-day credit excess. His commodities trading strategy Stay-C has won awards all over Europe. He is the publisher of the web site Seasonal Charts as well as of the Bloomberg app Seasonax and Head Analyst of the 90 Tage Trader Letter.

Dec 22, 2016 - 8:06pm


My double post was actually a repost from previous thread, so it doesn't count. You are definitely #4 Marchas.

Dec 22, 2016 - 8:28pm

"Our boys" would never do that!

Been said so many times, so many places in the past. Don't forget AIJ, you have not yet been the subject of the propaganda and villification campaign to come. You and I will slowly, but surely be transformed in the sheeple's eyes, to something vile, dangerous, and loathesome. Our own mothers might turn us in, after they're done.

Unless, of course, it turns out differently this time.....which will simply be a learning experience for the banksters of the next generation, who will no doubt get it right then.

AIJ benque
Dec 22, 2016 - 8:38pm

RE: Our Boys

Dream on. How's Golden Turtle doing?

Again, Laughable.

Dr. P. Metals
Dec 22, 2016 - 9:08pm

This looks a wee bit parabolic

Maybe I'll be on the leading edge of a parabola for once in my life, s opposed to the butt end always...

Another week or two of this and I won't care what my miners do anymore

Dec 22, 2016 - 9:09pm

Bitcoin / Clif Update...

BTC pushing to the $900's ?


Ack! #BTC probably IS defining 'gaps' now.....wait for the jump out of the 800's....described as '2b scary 2 #BTC novices'!

BankRunner ‏@BankRunNow 10m10 minutes ago

@clif_high its beautiful to watch an unrigged market with no plunge protection team,

Roy ‏@RoyTrimboli 10m10 minutes ago

@clif_high Scary Good Clif!! Merry Christmas!

Dec 22, 2016 - 9:18pm

I guess you must be right AIG

It could never happen here!

Dec 22, 2016 - 9:37pm

Cashless Society

Don't believe all the hype about cash being outlawed.

As long as there are corrupt politicians, there will be cash.

However, I do worry about their outlawing precious metals, nationalizing the mines and taxing away our profits, if the move to $600 Silver & $10,000 Gold occurs. Especially, if the Federal gov't needs precious metals to conduct foreign trade.

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Key Economic Events Week of 6/24

6/25 10:00 ET New Home Sales
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6/26 8:30 ET Durable Goods
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Key Economic Events Week of 6/17

6/18 8:30 ET Housing Starts and Building Permits
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Key Economic Events Week of 5/20

5/20 7:00 pm ET CGP speech
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Key Economic Events Week of 5/13

TWELVE Goon speeches through the week
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