Jim Willie Discusses The Bond Bubble, Part II


This podcast picks up right where Part One left off, as Jim is about to discuss "the bond carry trade".

The Bond Carry Trade is the process by which, since 2009, the TBTF banks have been able to "pretty up" their balance sheets by showing massive profits on their bond portfolios. The banks borrow from The Fed at near-zero interest rates and they re-invest that same money into 2-3% yielding treasuries, keeping the spread and booking it as quarterly profit. This allows CNBS and other media to tout their equities as "cheap" and "undervalued" when, in fact, they are insolvent zombies.

As you might imagine, The Bond Carry Trade is only one of the topics Jim covers here so sit back, relax and enjoy yourself some Jackass. TF


Oct 7, 2013 - 1:00am

@DPH - about those Turkish-Chinese missile sales

I have to think Turkey looked at the US price tag and balked. They could buy a cheaper system from the Chinese.

Now, the US and NATO are balking.

The US and NATO should quit balking. China is going to deliver to Turkey the missiles. The US can send engineers to quantify the Chinese system and then build the integration system. We would know the performance of the entire Chinese system, if the US would let the Turkey-China arms sales occur.

My conclusion is that either the US doesn't care what China's engineering is, or the US already has the engineering specifications down.

Either way, it's arrogant. We should let the Turkish import the first set of missiles and then assist the Turkish government in doing testing along the Black Sea.

Nigel Black
Oct 7, 2013 - 9:48am
Oct 7, 2013 - 10:03am


There's no reason to get excited. I've come to the conclusion that the PMs won't go anywhere until the COMEX defaults or is shut down. The latter is very unlikely, in my opinion, so I suppose we'll have to wait until default. If or when that happens, THEN I'll get excited. Until then, the cartel will keep the prices wherever they want them.

Oct 7, 2013 - 10:27am



Larry Edelson with some alternate perspective

mus t have attached link arse up or something here is the commentary with link info

The Truth About Gold That No One Else Will Tell You by Larry Edelson I love gold. I love its history. I love the role it's had in many monetary systems. I love the beauty of gold. I love the versatile uses of gold. I love gold coins. I love objects made of gold. I love gold's role in new technologies. But gold is not the end-all, be-all of the investment world. Nor is it the world's savior. It is not even a very good hedge against inflation. The hate mail will pour in again. I'm sure of it. But I have my reasons for giving you the truth, and nothing but the truth, about gold. As despised as I'll be for the facts I give you today, you need to know the truth. There are all too many myths and propaganda out there about gold, and if you get caught up in them, you most assuredly will lose the shirt off your back investing in gold. Gold is not the end-all, be-all of the investment world. The fact of the matter is that the chief reason promoted to invest in gold — inflation — is dead wrong. Consider the following: At the depths of the depression in 1929, an ounce of gold sold for $20. The Dow Industrials was at 40. An ounce of gold today is roughly $1,300. It has increased 65 times over. But the Dow Industrials stands at about 15,000. That's 375 times more than it was in 1929. And that means since 1930, the Dow has outperformed gold 5.8 times over. In 1980, gold sold for $850 an ounce. The Dow Industrials was at 824.6. Since then, gold has increased 1.5 times over, and the Dow 18 times. In 1980, the average price of a single-family home in the U.S. was $68,700. Today it's $223,222. It's increased 3.3 times over (despite the real estate crash five years ago). Gold's up just over 50 percent since then. Now, on the flip side of the coin, since the year 2000, gold's gained more than 400 percent. But the Dow Industrials are up a meager 29 percent. So you see, overall, gold is not as great an inflation hedge as most would like to believe. Certainly not the gold promoters, who want you to buy gold at every twist and turn in the market, forever telling you that it's the world's best inflation hedge, when in reality, it is not. The fact of the matter is this: First, there are times when gold is a great inflation hedge, and there are times when it is not. Second, there are times when gold goes up, and there are times when gold goes down, just like any other market or asset class. Therefore, to maximize your profits in gold, you need to know when to be aggressively in gold, and when not to. As a corollary, to also maximize your profits, you need to ignore the white noise about gold. Gold is one of the most emotional markets on the planet, one of the world's most recognized investments, all over the world. Yet, it is also the market where the biggest lies are told, the biggest myths are perpetuated, and where the largest amount of misinformation is spread. I tell you this only because it's my job to help you protect your wealth. I have no vested interest in doing anything but that. So bring on the gold investors — and especially the gold dealers and promoters — who will want my scalp for writing this column today. I don't really give a hoot. All I care about is spreading the historical truth, not BS, propaganda or market myths. That said, there will soon come a time when it is prudent to load up on gold, but we're not there yet. The simple reason is gold's interim bear market is not yet over.As you know from my previous columns, I expected a cycle low to form by Oct. 3. We got that low, right on cue at $1,276.90, one day early, on Oct. 2 But that low did not break the prior low at $1,178. That means the interim bear market is not over yet, and that gold will likely bounce around in a tight trading range for the next few months, then do a swan dive heading into January of next year, where I expect gold will move below $1,178 — and likely bottom around the $1,035 level, or just slightly lower, under $1,000. And then I will tell you to "back up the truck" on gold. For, you see, during gold's ensuing new bull market leg higher — it will finally play catch-up with inflation, it will also rise as European and U.S. governments fall from their perches into a heap of rubble — and gold will begin an ascent that will take it to well over $5,000 an ounce. Timing, in life and in the markets, is everything. Gold is not immune to that law. And it's just not time for gold to shine again. If you own gold from much lower levels, as I do and my subscribers do as well, then hold that gold. It's great insurance. But don't back up the truck on new purchases yet. Wait until I tell you to do so. Best wishes, and stay tuned ... Larry About Money and Markets For more information and archived issues, visit https://www.moneyandmarkets.com Money and Markets is a free daily investment
jezfry AGAU
Oct 7, 2013 - 10:37am

Re: Edelson

This guy changes his tune with the wind; he made a good call when prices peaked in 2011 but tends to forget his not so good calls. He can be too cute in his predictions and while he may be proven right I find his attempts at precise calls more about his ego than anything else.

AGAU jezfry
Oct 7, 2013 - 10:49am

I agree I take a pinch of

I agree I take a pinch of salt with all " newsletter writers actually I used to subscribe to his news letter and a bunch of others I get much more info and sensible opinion here in Turdville it's more fun too

Swift Boat Vet AGAU
Oct 7, 2013 - 11:34am

Gold and Dow?

One thing I always keep in mind with these two is that many of the companies comprising the DOW in 1929 have been replaced with new firms. Maybe one of our more astute market historians here can report just how many 1929 DOW companies still are included in that illustrious group, and what the DOW would presently be including ONLY the original, 1929 companies.


PS Regarding the new $100 bills due out tomorrow, some are keeping all their cash in $100 bills, while others are keeping any cash in small bills only.

What are expectations for possible cash/currency/devaluation or whatever?

Spartacus Rex
Oct 7, 2013 - 11:35am

@ Edelson So Where’s This So-Called “Truth About Gold” Asshat?

Edelson- Ignoranus, or flat out Sell Out?

How convenient that Edelson leaves out the blatant and most obvious “truth” about Gold, namely that the Bankster cartel has virtually free reign to use fiat Phederal Reserve credits, “clicked” into existence out of thin air, to not only pump and prop up the stock market to absurdly asinine levels, but as well to simultaneously manipulate and smash down the so-called “market prices” of Gold and Silver. (The only real ’MONEY’ there is, which actually takes EFFORT to create more of these)

No mention that in 1980 the federal debt stood at only $1 Trillion, whereas today stands at nearly $17 Trillion, and most likely will soon go to $20 Trillion.

No mention whatsoever about that $700 Trillion - $1 Quadrillion Derivative Death Star of DEBT still there just waiting to implode.

No mention that while the BRICS and Oil Exporting ME Nations are acquiring Gold hand over fist NON STOP, the Western Central Banksters are actually assisting them, as they are too busy trying to maintain the façade so as not too frighten the Sheople back into their Senses before they have destroyed America!

Gold is MONEY, it is INSURANCE, and carries NO COUNTER-PARTY RISK!

That is the "Truth About Gold"!

Oct 7, 2013 - 12:07pm


I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I recall lots of folks hissing about that Kitco guy (Nadler?) making bearish calls on gold and silver when they traded much higher only to see them reach the price points we've already experienced...and he was completely correct to everyone's dismay...including mine.

Take everyone and everything they predict with certainty with a huge grain of salt. Edelson has guts to say what some can't even entertain the idea of.

He could be wrong or he could be spot on.

Spartacus Rex
Oct 7, 2013 - 12:33pm

@ DPH - WTH? Safety In The Herd (of Lemmings)?

Fine STAY on the sidelines with the rest of the mathematically challenged!

Seriously, do you believe the suicidal stupidity of what Edelson is saying?

Essentially that Gold WILL go to $5000 an ounce, BUT continue to stay on the sidelines in the REMOTE 'chance" that you will actually be able to pick it up for a mere $200 less per Ounce?

As if THAT price will be the point magic Rubicon will have been crossed and then everyone, their neighbor, and even the neighbor's dog will realize the facade and thus stampede to load up on Gold?

To Wit:

"That said, there will soon come a time when it is prudent to load up on gold, but we're not there yet. The simple reason is gold's interim bear market is not yet over.As you know from my previous columns, I expected a cycle low to form by Oct. 3. We got that low, right on cue at $1,276.90, one day early, on Oct. 2 But that low did not break the prior low at $1,178. That means the interim bear market is not over yet, and that gold will likely bounce around in a tight trading range for the next few months, then do a swan dive heading into January of next year, where I expect gold will move below $1,178 — and likely bottom around the $1,035 level, or just slightly lower, under $1,000. And then I will tell you to "back up the truck" on gold. For, you see, during gold's ensuing new bull market leg higher — it will finally play catch-up with inflation, it will also rise as European and U.S. governments fall from their perches into a heap of rubble — and gold will begin an ascent that will take it to well over $5,000 an ounce.

Right Edelson!

Stay on the sidelines

It is much better to hope to possibly save that improbable, mere $200 per ounce savings, and have the privilege to stand in line behind the Ten's of Millions who don't have as much as a single ounce of Gold who will be stampeding at the last minute!

Absolutely BRILLIANT plan there Edelson, you ASSHAT!

Oct 7, 2013 - 12:41pm

Fukushima worker accidentally switches off cooling pumps; backup

Oct. 07, 2013 - 05:30PM JST ( 44 )


The operator of Japan’s crippled Fukushima nuclear plant said on Monday that pumps used to inject water to cool damaged reactors were hit by a power failure, but a backup system kicked in immediately.

The Nuclear Regulation Authority said a worker conducting system inspections mistakenly pushed a button turning off power to some of the systems in the four reactor buildings at the Fukushima plant.

Plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) pours hundreds of tons of water a day over the reactors to keep them cool after a devastating earthquake and tsunami in March 2011 triggered meltdowns and hydrogen explosions.

TEPCO said water was being pumped to the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors at the plant and pools storing spent fuel rods were being cooled.

The latest incident is another reminder of the precarious state of the Fukushima plant, which has suffered a series of mishaps and accidents this year. Earlier this year, TEPCO lost power to cool spent uranium fuel rods at the Fukushima Daiichi plant after a rat tripped an electrical wire.

TEPCO has come under increased scrutiny after it found in August that 300 tons of highly radioactive water had leaked from one of the hastily built storage tanks at the Fukushima site. Japan stepped up support for the embattled utility last month, pledging half a billion dollars to help contain contaminated water at Fukushima.

The utility is struggling to store massive amounts of contaminated water at the site while planning a complex decommission that could take decades to complete.

Shares in TEPCO dropped by as much as 8.9% on Monday, to a 5-week low, and last traded at 488 yen, down 7.6%.


ancientmoney abguy4
Oct 7, 2013 - 2:08pm

@abguy4 re: silent weapons . . .

This article, or paper, rather, reminds me of what the author (or author of the book's Forward, I forget now) of "JFK" (L. Fletcher Prouty) said of the elite. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but in essence, the elite:

1. Follow the "survival of the fittest" view as per Darwin;

2. Follow the Malthusian view that there are not enough resources to sustain the population as it is/growing; that population needs to be reduced;

3. The elites use small, self-created wars to maintain/obtain control over governments and peoples; bankers are key to their control;

4. Wish to avoid extinction events, such as use of nuclear war, though they will use tactical nukes when they deem it necessary. They know they can't survive an all-out nuclear war.

They, of course view themselves as "fittest" and therefore, the ones to survive and carry out the depopulations they have planned for others.

This paper has lots of scary passages, but this one confirms Prouty's book:

"Since most of the general public will not exercise restraint, there are only two alternatives

to reduce the economic inductance of the system.

1. Let the populace bludgeon each other to death in war, which will only result in a

total destruction of the living earth.

2. Take control of the world by the use of economic "silent weapons" in a form of

"quiet warfare" and reduce the economic inductance of the world to a safe level by

a process of benevolent slavery and genocide.

The latter option has been taken as the obviously better option. At this point it should be

crystal clear to the reader why absolute secrecy about the silent weapons is necessary."


Of course, the paper you linked also discusses the importance (for control) of a dumbed-down education system, controlled media, providing "bread and circuses" to distract the stupids, and the welfare state, which provides an instant army (we know it here as the Free Shit Army) for the elites, whom they control via handouts from the public purse.

Oct 7, 2013 - 2:19pm

Silent weapons and PMs pricing . . .

The paper abguy4 linked also has this passage, which explains (somewhat, anyway) the unexpected price movements in gold and silver:

"Economic engineers achieve the same result in studying the behavior of the economy and

the consumer public by carefully selecting a staple commodity such as beef, coffee,

gasoline, or sugar, and then causing a sudden change or shock in its price or availability,

thus kicking everybody's budget and buying habits out of shape.

They then observe the shock waves which result by monitoring the changes in

advertising, prices, and sales of that and other commodities.

The objective of such studies is to acquire the know-how to set the public economy into a

predictable state of motion or change, even a controlled self-destructive state of motion

which will convince the public that certain "expert" people should take control of the

money system and reestablish security (rather than liberty and justice) for all. When the

subject citizens are rendered unable to control their financial affairs, they, of course,

become totally enslaved, a source of cheap labor."


They got the PPT legalized following the 1987 crash. Since 2007 the PPT seems to have stepped up its manipulations of all markets, PMs included of course. Sine it is all done by the PPT or its agents, it is legal and therefore is not legally "manipulation." Quite insidious, no?

Oct 7, 2013 - 2:37pm

More silent weaponry from the elite . . .

Table of Strategies Do This To Get This: Keep the public ignorant to get Less public organization. Maintain access to control point for feedback to get Required reaction to outputs (prices, sales). Create preoccupation to get Lower defense. Attack the family unit to get Control of the education of the young. Give less cash and more credit and doles to get More self-indulgence and more data. Attack the privacy of the church to Destroy faith in this sort of government. Social conformity to get Computer programming simplicity. Minimize the tax protest to Maximum economic data, minimum enforcement problems. Stabilize the consent to get Simplicity coefficients. Tighten control of variables to get Simpler computer input data - greater predictability. Establish boundary conditions to get Problem simplicity/solutions of differential and difference equations. Proper timing to get Less data shift and blurring. Maximize control to get Minimum resistance to control. Collapse of currency to Destroy the faith of the American people in each other. --------------------------------------------------------- They seem to be following their strategies almost to the "T."

Oct 7, 2013 - 2:44pm


I should just defer to your expertise on everything.

What was I thinking? Only an ass-hat discounts negative gold or silver price reactions in a manipulated and managed market.

Your reading comprehension needs some work not to mention your style of retort at times. To discount some adverse market reactions at this point means you havent learned from the recent past.

One look at a chart tells you $1,000 isn't impossible with $1200 looking possible. If you believe the markets are stroked then you must realize anything's possible.

I shouldn't even have to explain that simple fact especially after the CFTC's recent decision and the green light the cartel now has.

Believe what you want, but my mind is open to many possibilities in this rigged game.

Oct 7, 2013 - 2:47pm

Diversion the main strategy . . .

Dancing with the Stars, Honey Boo-Boo, the Kardashians, Paris Hilton, and a few false flags thrown in seem to do the trick:

"Diversion, the Primary Strategy

Experience has prevent that the simplest method of securing a silent weapon and gaining

control of the public is to keep the public undisciplined and ignorant of the basic system

principles on the one hand, while keeping them confused, disorganized, and distracted

with matters of no real importance on the other hand.

This is achieved by:

* disengaging their minds; sabotaging their mental activities; providing a low-quality

program of public education in mathematics, logic, systems design and economics;

and discouraging technical creativity.

* engaging their emotions, increasing their self-indulgence and their indulgence in

emotional and physical activities, by:

ο unrelenting emotional affrontations and attacks (mental and emotional rape) by

way of constant barrage of sex, violence, and wars in the media - especially the

T.V. and the newspapers.

ο giving them what they desire - in excess - "junk food for thought" - and

depriving them of what they really need.

* rewriting history and law and subjecting the public to the deviant creation, thus being

able to shift their thinking from personal needs to highly fabricated outside priorities.

These preclude their interest in and discovery of the silent weapons of social automation


Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars

Page 37

The general rule is that there is a profit in confusion; the more confusion, the more profit.

Therefore, the best approach is to create problems and then offer solutions.

Diversion Summary

Media: Keep the adult public attention diverted away from the real social issues, and

captivated by matters of no real importance.

Schools: Keep the young public ignorant of real mathematics, real economics, real law,

and real history.

Entertainment: Keep the public entertainment below a sixth-grade level.

Work: Keep the public too busy to busy to have time to think about what's really going on."

Oct 7, 2013 - 2:48pm

Grenades fired in Cairo, troops killed near Suez Canal

Grenades fired in Cairo, troops killed near Suez Canal after protesters die


Mon Oct 7, 2013 12:37pm EDT

By Shadia Nasralla and Yara Bayoumy

CAIRO (Reuters) - Suspected militants killed six Egyptian soldiers near the Suez Canal and fired rocket-propelled grenades at a state satellite station in Cairo on Monday, suggesting an Islamist insurgency was gathering pace three months after an army takeover.

Dozens of supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood were killed in clashes with security forces and political opponents on Sunday, one of the bloodiest days since the military deposed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi in July.

The death toll from that day's violence across the country rose to 53, state media said, with 271 people wounded.

The Brotherhood denies the military's charges that it incites violence and says it has nothing to do with militant activity, but further confrontations may shake Egypt this week, with Mursi's supporters calling for further protests this week.

They are likely to be angered by the publication of an interview with Egypt's army chief on Monday in which he said he told Mursi as long ago as February he had failed as president.

Sunday's clashes took place on the anniversary of the 1973 war with Israel - meant to have been a day of national celebration. The countries signed a peace agreement in 1979.

Authorities had warned that anyone protesting against the army during the anniversary would be regarded as an agent of foreign powers, not an activist - a hardening of language that suggested authorities would take a tougher line.

The Muslim Brotherhood accused the army of staging a coup and working with security forces to eliminate the group through violence and arrests, allegations the military denies.

Sinai-based militants have stepped up attacks on the security forces since the army takeover and assaults like that in Cairo's Maadi suburb fuel fears of an Islamist insurgency like one in the 1990s crushed by then President Hosni Mubarak.

Two people were wounded in the attack on the state-owned satellite station while medical sources said three were killed and 48 injured in a blast near a state security building in South Sinai. A witness said it was caused by a car bomb.

"Unidentified people opened fire on a satellite receiver station in the neighborhood of Maadi in Cairo," the Ministry of Interior said in a statement. Security sources said assailants fired two rocket-propelled grenades at the site.

Security sources said gunmen opened fire on the soldiers in Ismailia while they were sitting in a car at a checkpoint near the city on the Canal, a vital global trade route.


Traffic flowed freely in the centre of Cairo where Sunday's clashes had taken place and state radio said security forces were in control of the country.

But attacks in Cairo like Monday's on the satellite station could do further damage to Egypt's vital tourism industry.

David Hartwell, a Middle East analyst at IHS Jane's, said more explosive devices seemed to be being used in the capital.

"It suggests that Sinai groups are infiltrating in greater numbers in to northern Egypt," he said. "Either these groups are expanding out of Sinai, he said, "or the capabilities that they have is being used by other groups that may or not be affiliated with the Brotherhood."....


Spartacus Rex ¤
Oct 8, 2013 - 2:23am


O.K. DPH, I tell you what, I apologize for over-estimating your capacity to utilize sufficient commonsense to comprehend what is in fact, at stake regarding “TEOTGKE”.

So let me to make the crux of the issue simple enough, and crystal clear, that perhaps even 12 year olds might possibly get it. To wit:


While theoretically, Nothing is “Impossible”, One nevertheless should still seriously fully consider the ‘probability’ of such likely happening, and then place such in perspective of RISK versus REWARD.

Set aside that other well known people, such as Bob Chapman (R.I.P.) have for decades, been explaining what is going on, not to mention others such as Jessie, Harvey, Bill Holter, Santa, and Jim Willie who just recently exposed just how serious, and pathetically late stage terminal the situation is with the Phed Reserve and the Big Banks, piled on top of the irrefutable evidence whereby the BRICS (& Others) are accumulating Gold at unprecedented rates, as well as converting their U.S. Treasuries & funny munny “dollar”reserves into solid natural resources in Africa and S. America, in addition to (along with even America’s “Trading Partners”) lining up bilateral Trade Swaps with China!

Plus all of the reputable reports coming out of Switzerland, the world’s largest refiner of Gold, can barely keep up with the demand for recasting those London Good Delivery Bars into Kilogram bars being shipped as fast as possible to the East, and those with actual industry knowledge have repeatedly stated that these manipulated smash downs in Gold, are not only the result of absurdly large paper contracts being carried out predominantly in the overnight markets, when trades are normally most quiet, and even these paper trades are nothing but mere naked shorting, and highly leveraged at that.

20/20 Hindsight and the Charts, demonstrated the extent of what happened not only in April of 2013, but at the end of June as well, and history also showed how the physical orders for the Western Banks’ Gold came in from the East with a Fury with no risk of these foreigners ever running out of Phed Reserve Ponzi Coupons to pay cash for the Tons of Gold which simply disappeared to the East.

Knowing what we already know about Gold leasing scams, hypothecated “fractional reserve” Gold Reserves, (ergo WHY Germany must now wait Seven Years to simply get back a mere 20% of their contractually “allocated” Gold) as well as B.S. ETF’s, let’s now fully consider what sage and For FREE advice Edelson attempts to offer his esteemed readers:

Edelson admits that he sees Gold going “to well over $5000 an ounce”, yet does not offer any credible reason (subsequent to the two previous smash downs mentioned above, and the buying response/s that came from the East) why since Gold has yet to “break through the prior low of $1178, that it is written in Stone Anywhere, that due to the laws of physics and /or gravity, it simply must, ergo will do so, or why it is likely that Gold should inexplicably (other than simply because Edelson says so) “then do a swan dive heading into January of next year, where I expect gold will move below $1,178 — and likely bottom around the $1,035 level, or just slightly lower, under $1,000.”

Excuse Me? But WTF?

Gee, O.K. Edelson, and you are going to back this allegation with WHAT again?

Again, RISK versus REWARD (ie Bird in Hand versus Two in the Bush!)

So, now let’s consider what possibly could go WRONG with Edelson’s proposal between NOW and that presumed Swan Dive in January of 2014, such as oh I don’t know, Debt Ceiling Impasse; Bail Ins; Capital Controls; U.S. Treasury suspends Gold Sales; even LCS stock inventory previously purchased at higher price, ergo Super Steep Premiums; or perhaps even No Inventory On Hand; Defecation Hits the Oscillation on a U.S. Holiday Weekend, and the East simply cleans out all remaining inventory before U.S. Markets open, etc., etc., ad nauseum, but for the imaginary additional $200 discount over current spot that Edelson CANNOT guarantee ANYONE, that simply is a RISK versus REWARD opportunity that who in their right mind could otherwise ignore or refuse. RIGHT DPH?

Like it is going to even Matter when Gold hits $5000+, that One just wanted the chance to brag how they camped out for hours in front of their LCS just so they could get the last Ounce of Gold available at “1035” or “lower”, only to wind up with ZERO just like the Ten’s of Millions of other Sheople!

Wow Really BIG, BIG REWARD! A potential, albeit hardly probable $200 Reward for SITTING on the Sidelines, so China et al, can continue NON STOP sucking out the remaining unknown, un-audited, hypothecated Stockpile of U.S. & Western Central Banks’ Gold.

Only a Genius could come up with such a Plan, and only a Sucker would buy it.

Because only a Sucker would never even imagine to ask why, if the Banksters could indeed smash Gold to $1000 or below, they simply didn’t already DO SO in either April or late June in 2013

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