TFMR Podcast #29 - Patrick Heller of Liberty Coin Service


On Thursday, I had an opportunity to visit with Patrick Heller of Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Michigan. Pat is one of the world's foremost experts on rare and collectible coins and was recently named "Dealer of The Year" by the American Numismatic Association.

I met Pat at FreedomFest back in July. Besides being an outstanding coin dealer, Pat's a prolific writer whose articles are often featured on many precious metals sites around the internet. Being a fan of his writings for several years, I was very excited to finally make his acquaintance.

Dealings in bullion and rare coins can, occasionally, be tricky business and I knew that our community needed an expert, knowledgeable "go-to" guy. So, in this podcast, I wanted to introduce Pat to the group and query him for answers to several, commonly-asked questions.

He kindly offers his services and contact information at the conclusion of the interview and I suggest that all those with an interest in numismatics should seek out his services and counsel.



Sep 28, 2012 - 3:05pm
Sep 28, 2012 - 3:09pm

Feed the


Sep 28, 2012 - 3:10pm

had to do it once


now that is taken care of I am thrilled to be able to hear Patrick speak after reading his words for so long

thanks for the hat tip, that is also a first for me

Mr. Fix
Sep 28, 2012 - 3:33pm


I am so done with this mornings "fifth".

(Back to lurking again.)

Admiral Ag Bar
Sep 28, 2012 - 3:48pm

Thanks Turd

Great podcast! Thanks for all you do.

Admiral Ag Bar
Sep 28, 2012 - 4:21pm

Egon Van Grey Hairs

This is what I like to hear (even if it is KWN cheerleading):

Admiral Ag Bar
Sep 28, 2012 - 4:23pm

Where is everybody?

I got Turdville all to myself!


Buy the physicals BiTch3z!!!!! Weeeee@@@!!

Time to grab a beer or three.

Sep 28, 2012 - 4:26pm

thx turd

I like Patrick and I’m glad we finally got an interview, which I always appreciate. I did get the feeling that he was pressed for time today lol.

Sep 28, 2012 - 4:30pm

@ Admiral Ag Bar

That is exactly what I was thinking, where the hell is everyone today!? Boring day in the metals = boring day in turdville

Sep 28, 2012 - 5:37pm

Two Things

Quick glance at the Kitco charts. Notice that risk is OFF, by watching the USD rise $0.50. Gold correlation to the inverse is dropping in a typical fashion. Yet, silver is only off 7 cents. Why is that?

How come silver is not down more like 50 cents or a dollar? Strange indeed.

Okay, back to work for me.

Sep 28, 2012 - 5:47pm

dunno but i wish it was.

dunno but i wish it was. Waiting for another drop below 34 to hop in some more calls

Sep 28, 2012 - 5:51pm

Thanks for podcast Turd

In checking out Patrick's website, he has a great article about physical silver supplies in London. This explains why small coins and bars are readily available for now, but 1000 oz. LBMA good delivery bars are scarce or nonexistent. I don't know about y'all, but I am sick of the troll-type characters saying there is no silver shortage because coins and small bars are readily available from dealers.

Admiral Ag Bar croc987
Sep 28, 2012 - 6:09pm


Great article croc! Turd has the serious connections!

Sep 28, 2012 - 8:52pm

good point

there is a wide bid ask for the collectable coins. he makes a good point that these are to be long term ideas ..even pass them on to heirs. too bad he didn't recommend a 'starter set' type of coin: not too rare, widespread interest, and low entry price. so we can learn the ins and outs before plunking down big dollars.

in the mean time he did say stack!!!! in a coin collector type of way. 'bullion has a tight bid ask' so you can get out easier if need be.

Sep 28, 2012 - 10:42pm

So, Turd posts this after I

So, Turd posts this the day after I break my junk cherry on some Franklin 1/2 dollars.

Sep 28, 2012 - 11:01pm

Silver, silver, silver

I want the most silver for my bucks, so numismatic coins are not really my thing. Still, you can probably make great investments there if you know what you're doing.

A quick look at the chart: A breakout out of the flag pattern wouldn't be too bad, would it? The 50-day MA is about to cross over the 200-day MA. - free portfolio tracker & analysis of gold and silver stocks

El Gordo
Sep 29, 2012 - 8:11am


Why not just call him and ask? Then share his answer with the rest of us and rack up a few hat tips. Just like our stack, our bank of hat tips can never be large enough.

Sep 29, 2012 - 9:32am

Position limits ruling..

Pertinent info for all Turdites:

This sucks! Position limits shot down by judge. Proof of the corrupt system.

Here's the story:

Physical supply our only hope & salvation now for true price discovery.

AJwhiteshirt out.

Sep 29, 2012 - 11:42am

Bought my first

Bought my first load of goods from Liberty nearly 2 decades ago, when my speculations on metals really got you a host of stares from my brokerage contemporaries and maybe some of them speculating on my sanity. My only regret is not accumulating more earlier, which might have allowed me an earlier retirement. Liberty has served our families precious needs very well and I recommend others to do business with them.

Strongsidejedi LongGoldLongSilver
Sep 29, 2012 - 1:18pm

Nice chart! (@LongGoldLongSilver)

Thanks for posting that chart on Ag's performance over the past six months.

That formation is starting to look like a cup, is it?

The breakout from the pennant is pretty remarkable. My eye sees the flag pole at end of June.

The other possibility is that there is a new pennant with the pole being in mid-September?

Larry L
Sep 29, 2012 - 4:59pm

Patrick Heller

I did like what Patrick Heller had to say and look forward to getting more in depth in his next interview.

I do have a few Morgan Silver Dollars MS65-67 coins. The good price to pay for one was under $170 with less than 500 others graded better. Today that would be hard to find. But personally I would rather hold more bullion coins than most collectibles. I think when the stuff hits the fan, I would probably lose money on most collectibles but do alright with the bullion coins or the junk silver coins. Junk silver coins are the pre 1965 US Mint silver coinage that is not a "collectable," it's your typical pocket change/circulated coins.

A few years ago I sold the collectable key dates in the Lincoln pennies in exchange for junk silver. Even though the key dates have increased in price, they have not had the returns as the price of silver continues to dominate the market. The price of silver has doubled since then and the price of those key dates, show lesser returns.

R man J
Sep 29, 2012 - 6:27pm

Learned something.

After several years of stacking and devouring all the information I can, I learned something. Patrick gives good advice regarding the low premiums on quarters and dimes. Local coin shops give you just as much for the silver in dines and quarters as they do for the silver in dollars and halves. They give you just as much for a '64 Roosevelt dime as they do for an average grade 1914 Barber dime. So why pay the premium for the older coins?

Numismatic habits are hard to break.

I have quite a few semi-key date Lincolns and Mercs that I have had since my youth. Anyone had success getting a decent dollar for these?

Sep 29, 2012 - 10:07pm

On the subject 90%

According to wikipedia the Franklin half dollar has 0.36169 troy oz (11.25 gr) of silver. Based on that it appears I got taken a little on my recent purchase:

0.36169 troy oz X 20 = 7.2338 troy oz. I paid $335.22 (including shipping) which is $46.34 per troy oz. (335.22/7.2338) if I'm calculating correctly. On the same order I paid $154.88 (including shipping) for 4 ASEs. That works out to 38.72 per troy oz. Live and learn. I guess it will be dimes and quarters next time.
Short Stack
Sep 29, 2012 - 10:43pm

@ Puck T.

Try Provident Metals next time. Shipping is lower than most any other dealer. Last I checked they were sold out of pre-65 quarters though. Silver half-dollars are running for $26.69 this weekend. Average silver content is .715 ozt per $1 Face.

.715 X $34.37 spot = $24.57

$26.69 - 24.57 =$2.12 over spot for two silver half-dollars.

Premiums will only go up as spot prices go higher.

Also Note: Each dealer goes by their own Spot Prices and not necessarily the same as say NetDania.
Sep 30, 2012 - 1:29pm
Sep 30, 2012 - 8:49pm

a scottsman who lost a

a scottsman who lost a dime.....

maybe it was a 1964 dime ?

or a dime bag ?

Sep 30, 2012 - 8:53pm

a scottsman who lost a

whooops looks like i was click happy

let me take this time to say does everyone just feel the downward pressure building ? It just feels like the metals have the boot on the neck. Who thinks the mega raid is coming this week ? OR will a pop cause alot of covering ?

just feels heavy.

Sep 30, 2012 - 11:57pm

Bearish on Cable (GBP/USD currency pair) will affect metals

It doesn't get more bearish than this.

This would drive US equities and metals down methinks. Heavy long stackers may wish to place a hedge.

A kickdown from the intermediate time channel B100 line, followed by a

kickdown from the B177 shorter term channel (very steep BTW),

followed by a bear flag and now a retrace.

In the past when I have seen things "this clear cut" is when the exact opposite happens. However, I am taking this one short at triple the normal size bet. Stops are placed 3 staggered places, and would result in substantial losses.

Oct 1, 2012 - 3:34am

Unrelated to metals, well

Unrelated to metals, well kind of, but important.

Radiation going up slowly and quickly across the US
A quick review shows some very disturbing trends.
An obvious uptrend in radiation is spreading across the country, with some areas seeing scary high levels. Something happened around Sept 17th.

Rule of thumb is that exposure to 100 CPM clicks per minute for a year results in a real risk of cancer, 500 CPM for 90 days is a real risk.

Many places are now up over 100,

25 is "normal" we just don't get that much lower. And back in the day, before Fuku, 50% to 66% of us got cancer, what will the new normal be.

Basic protective measures, air filters, anti-oxidants. Do them now if you are not on track. slowly-and-quickly.html

Daedalus Mugged
Oct 1, 2012 - 11:26am

Slightly Off Topic


There is a lot of commentary one this and similar sites about how high silver is expected to go. Do you have any predictions about the lowest silver will be over some time period (say 6 months or a year)? Not trying to be down on white or yellow metal, looking for a prediction that would color which dips to buy. (Full context, decent stack, could always add more at good prices, thus the question). Is there a price that would cause you to go all in?


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