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#1 Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 5:49pm
uptofreedom
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Hat Tip's...

Very cool feature, but its effectiveness is limited without a reciprocal function. What's to stop trolls from hat tipping each other?

For the community to self-moderate, we need to be able to give + and - hat tips, with the sum of the + and - displayed. This gives the reader an indication of how valuable that thread/comment is.

Edited by: uptofreedom on Jun 23, 2011 - 12:32pm
Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 6:20pm
Vypuero
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I have found using Atlas

I have found using Atlas points at the other site it works overall - however THERE at least it seems the more controversial a subject and partisan, the more points you get for taking one side or another. Still, if you go there everyone with a lot of atlas points (like me) has something of value to say.

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 6:26pm
Lord Koos
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I think the trolls will be

I think the trolls will be out numbered to the point that it won't make that much difference if they go around tipping each other.

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 6:28pm
xaritas
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Calculating reputation

I did reputation work for one of the major Internet companies once upon a time. They way you address this is by trailing off how much one individual can contribute to another relative to the total size of their social network. For example, if I give two people a hundred hat tips, and none to anybody else, maybe my 200 votes only get counted ten times a piece. But if I give 2 hat tips to a hundred different people, all 200 votes are counted.

The maths aren't very hard but it gets database intensive.

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 7:07pm (Reply to #4)
uptofreedom
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sounds complicated...

Positive and negative karma/hat tips/whatever much more simple... Right now we only see half of the picture, X number of people approve or find something helpful. That info is only important if it outnumbers the people who disapprove. Karma's like the free market in that regards, it takes two sides to get the whole picture...

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 7:16pm (Reply to #5)
xaritas
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Karma

Yeah, the problem we ran into was that binary techniques couldn't prevent people from forming mutual affirmation clusters to game the system, and also polarizing figures were unfairly penalized by having neutral karma thanks to a relatively small number of obsessive haters even though they were generally positively rated by the non-obsessed. Anyway, I tend to agree with Turd that giving negative karma tends to bring out the knives. We'll see how it develops, funny that the Internet has been around for a few years and we're still on square one for the general reputation problem.

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 7:57pm (Reply to #6)
tmosley
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Rather than giving negative

Rather than giving negative karma, I would suggest an implementation of an ignore feature (if it hasn't been done already).

Hopefully we'll never have to use it.

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 9:12pm
Bill Brasky
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Ill tip to that!

Ill tip to that!

Tue, Jun 14, 2011 - 11:07pm
Be Prepared
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Hat Tips

Developing and maintaining a truly effective reputation system is a difficult task for exactly the reasons stated above, but I also agree that an ignore button would help.

Plan for Tomorrow, but Work your Plan Today
Wed, Jun 15, 2011 - 2:45am
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Hat Tips

Having read here for many months now, I have a pretty good idea who to read and who to skip over, but only because there are so few trolls. I read it all, and make my own decision anyway. It is helpful to see that others share my conclusions, just like it is helpful to see that others do not. I like the the hat tip feature, since to me it inspires a "high road" approach. Nice job, turd!

"To save yourself from all this that has happened and will continue to happen requires commitment and courage. You have it or you do not. Admit who you are and act accordingly." Jim Sinclair, December 18, 2012.
Wed, Jun 15, 2011 - 9:52am
Goofy
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I just confirmed its possible

I just confirmed its possible to hat tip your self.... i do not know, but i think it might lead to a bit to much ego pumping!))

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 1:09pm (Reply to #11)
uptofreedom
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Goofy wrote:I just confirmed

Goofy wrote:

I just confirmed its possible to hat tip your self.... i do not know, but i think it might lead to a bit to much ego pumping!))

There's a handful of posters who get a hat tip immediately on every post they make. hmmmm....

Self tips ruin the system. What's the point, make a hundred junk posts and tip yourself on each one. How's that supposed to indicate trust? Self tipping needs to be disabled, or neg tips added, imho... 

(btw, can a mod move this to the suggestions forum?)

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 1:13pm
dropout
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Side Track Hat

Hat tricks are but an amusing aside. Detracting from the message. Like what's the last thing to go through a bug's mind as it hits the windshield?

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 1:25pm
silverbleve
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freedom from trolls

I think we have effectively marginalized the effect any one troll can have on the site by compartmentalizing the topics into separate threads. Before some user could just hijack the main and only thread and everyone had to deal with them, but now there is no one central place a troll can post to gain much visibility outside a single thread at a time.

atlee should have more hat tips frankly, but he dosent post often enough to give people the chance. fwiw he probably dosent really care.

I agree with lord Koos, we have the trolls outnumbered now, even without the hat tips feature we would still have eliminated a lot of noise.

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 1:29pm (Reply to #12)
tmosley
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uptofreedom wrote: Goofy

uptofreedom wrote:
Goofy wrote:

I just confirmed its possible to hat tip your self.... i do not know, but i think it might lead to a bit to much ego pumping!))

There's a handful of posters who get a hat tip immediately on every post they make. hmmmm....

Self tips ruin the system. What's the point, make a hundred junk posts and tip yourself on each one. How's that supposed to indicate trust? Self tipping needs to be disabled, or neg tips added, imho... 

(btw, can a mod move this to the suggestions forum?)

Good lord, people are doing that?

That isn't good. Probably ought to take care of that...

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 2:46pm (Reply to #15)
Piece of Gold - Peace of Mind
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I had asked Turd if he could

I had asked Turd if he could implement a "hat tip per post" calculation for each user. Not sure if that would be possible, but thought it would highlight quality posters.

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 2:49pm
tmosley
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I'm not particularly fond of

I'm not particularly fond of that idea, as it would encourage people not to post normally, but only in ways that are likely to get a lot of hat tips. This means not answering questions downthread in a long topic, or even avoiding the forums altogether.

At most, your nickname might reflect it, in such a way that it isn't obvious.

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 2:57pm (Reply to #16)
uptofreedom
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Piece of Gold - Peace of Mind

Piece of Gold - Peace of Mind wrote:

I had asked Turd if he could implement a "hat tip per post" calculation for each user. Not sure if that would be possible, but thought it would highlight quality posters.

we can kinda see that. hat tips and posts are counted in the user info block. it's useless info, however. Someone who's earned their tips could have a low ratio, while the cheaters can be near the top of the leaderboard. I suppose if someone has a 3:1 tips to posts ratio then it's safe to assume they're earned 'em, but even that could be corrupt. 

As is it's a broken, misleading system. I realize no negs was supposed to keep this place "nice", but it would be better to have no tips at all than a system that allows self-tipping...

How hard would it be to not let a post be tipped from the ip address from which the post originated?

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 5:25pm (Reply to #18)
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uptofreedom wrote:How hard

uptofreedom wrote:

How hard would it be to not let a post be tipped from the ip address from which the post originated?

I'm going to move this thread to the Site Feedback and Comments forum.

As for how hard it would be to implement, not that difficult. In fact we discussed this topic with Turd during development. His opinion was self-hat tipping is not a big issue at this time.

Hat tips are meant to be a guide, not an "end-all-be-all" system. If someone wants to game a system they will find a way, it doesn't matter what the system is. If I saw someone receive a hat tip 2 seconds after making a post, that would give me just as much insight into that person as them being at the top of a hat tip leaderboard (if not more).

Ultimately it is up to the discretion of you as a reader to determine if someone's posts are worthy of your time.

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 5:53pm (Reply to #19)
uptofreedom
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admin wrote: I'm going to

admin wrote:

I'm going to move this thread to the Site Feedback and Comments forum.

Thank you!

Quote:
If I saw someone receive a hat tip 2 seconds after making a post, that would give me just as much insight into that person as them being at the top of a hat tip leaderboard (if not more).

And what if its self-tipping that resulted in a poster being on the leader board in the first place? How would someone reading a thread after the fact know any better?

Quote:
Ultimately it is up to the discretion of you as a reader to determine if someone's posts are worthy of your time.

I completely agree, but IMO hat tips should help the reader to make that determination rather than hinder the process.

Apologies for bringing this up repeatedly, I just think hat tips should mean something. Those who are on the board a lot may have a good idea of who the self-tippers are, but new or infrequent visitors don't have that luxury.

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 - 6:12pm (Reply to #20)
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uptofreedom wrote: Apologies

uptofreedom wrote:

Apologies for bringing this up repeatedly, I just think hat tips should mean something. Those who are on the board a lot may have a good idea of who the self-tippers are, but new or infrequent visitors don't have that luxury.

uptofreedom, we're well aware that some on the site consider this to be an issue -- while others don't care at all. Rather than continuing to bring it up, let's take a different approach.

This point of feedback (along with every other point of feedback made by users) has been duly noted and resides on a list of potential future enhancements. There will eventually be an opportunity for us to discuss these items with Turd. As we always do, we will make sure he understands each side of the issue. Turd will then have the opportunity to decide if he wishes to focus time on it, or if he feels there are other matters that are of higher priority.

For the initial launch the decision has already been made, and it is not going to be changed in the immediate future.

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