BullionCoin

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Tue, Aug 15, 2017 - 4:17pm (Reply to #40)
billhilly
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Truly David, deep sympathy

Truly David, deep sympathy for ALL of you guys who are/were just trying to make a good and positive thing happen, including Andrew McGuire. I wish you better times ahead. Keep us informed as you can.

Tue, Aug 15, 2017 - 7:25pm (Reply to #42)
Gibbo
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Update from BullionCoin

Well, well, well...

It seems that not all is what it seems.

It's 1:20 in the morning in Cyprus and I've just finished a really nice one hour and 20 minute phone call with the co-founder of BullionCoin, Thomas Koenye (I was up late working due to BullionCoin's launch, so happy to take his call).

When I read the ABX announcement, before my chat with Thomas, there were a few points that struck me as odd about what was said and speaking with Thomas clarified several areas and brought to light some issues within ABX.

It seems that ABX's statement and points are generally not true and could have been an attempt to smear BullionCoin in an unprofessional manner. BullionCoin have fully documented all correspondence to back up their version of events and discussions with ABX.

BullionCoin were already looking at another provider which already does what ABX do in the provision of wholeale allocated precious metals outside the banking system, but on a much larger scale. It looks as though ABX issued a statement out of spite rather than based on true professional assessment.

ABX's statement has just backed themselves into a corner and they now need to do a lot of justification relating to it with specifics or they are not going to look good out of this at all.

These are the following points that caught my attention before speaking to Thomas of BullionCoin:

1) unallocated vs allocated

ABX used to offer electronic vault warrants (eVWs) to clients whereby they would get their bar serial numbers issued to them - they could visit the vault & inspect their specific bars. ABX withdrew that facility last year.

Since the withdrawal of eVWs, clients holding pm at ABX are also technically just creditors having a claim on the vaulted bullion - they can't point at any specific bar and say "that's mine". The ABX vaulted metal is technically only "allocated" on ABX's own books.

Unallocated is when the metal was never bought in the first place and is owed to you. That is how banks operate.

Allocated is when the metal exists in a 1:1 match with the companies client's booked accounts.

Segregated is when the serial numbers are issued and physically separate from the generic allocated pile of metal.

There is no difference between the way ABX and BullionCoin do it which is allocated.

So I have no idea what ABX were going on about. ABX were the only source of metals for BullionCoin which were to be directly bought from ABX's market.

If all the the metal is sourced via ABX, how could ABX state it's unallocated. They sold & delivered physical, not an unallocated promise.

So something didn't stack up with point 1.

2) BullionCoin have been using 30 highly experience software developers in the design of the system. I was a little surprised that ABX doesn't consider their skills in security of a high enough standard when Thomas Coughlin of ABX admitted to me face to face that the first few versions of MetalDesk were poorly written by what seemed to be a bunch of school kids.

So again seemed a bit odd to me.

3) Thomas of BullionCoin said he wasn't aware of any law suit or legal issue against BullionCoin.

The only place mentioned about possible IP infringement was in a GoldMoney community forum. I read that thead about 3 weeks ago and queried it with Thomas back then. Then, same as now, Thomas stated that there is no IP infringement. He has has several patent lawyers review GoldMoney's patents and even with the slightest tweaks, it was easily sidestepped.

So a non-issue. ABX are going to have to clarify what they mentioned here - if it turns out to be hearsay based on something they read in a forum, then they are going to look a bit daft.

4) Vaulting

This one was a bit odd.

BullionCoin's acceptance of deposits is pretty strict. It'll only take direct deposits into the vault from other secure providers like GoldMoney, Perth Mint, GoldCore etc - and even then they must have a certificate and depending upon their storage T&Cs, they will ask for an audit inspection prior to authorising the collection from those vaults.

Any doubt, then it needs to go via a refinery.

So really not sure about what ABX meant. Again they need to be specific and clarify what they stated.

The rest of the points - no idea.

I'll keep you posted on things behind the scenes.

All the best,

David

Be Your Own Central Bank https://www.goldvu.com
Tue, Aug 15, 2017 - 9:12pm
boomer sooner
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David

Thanks for the info.

Seems a little backstabbing going on. Makes me wonder if some BB or CB threat or intervention.

FYI, the forum section (this thread) is NOT behind the paywall (private among members only). The forum section can be read by anyone, member or no.

Wed, Aug 16, 2017 - 11:58am
billhilly
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What's got my shorts in a bunch...

Here's what bothers me about this BullionCoin launch. I've read the whitepaper twice now and repeatedly it states, " BC's can be freely purchased into existence by anyone"(pg 7)...well, that's if you are a member of the Primary exchange (BCX) (min.investment 250K), and are able to purchase lots of 10K coins. 

So here we have an entity which is purporting to be fair and open, with the expressed desire to create a level playing field for all, yet its very first act is to place limits and restrictions upon who can be a participant. Again, the rich get preferential treatment and the lower classes get screwed. 

And it goes deeper. They then offer a graded scale for the incentives. The more you invest the higher the percentage incentive (chart on pg 17). Again, the rich get richer. 

I ask why ? If the "coins" value themselves are based upon the underlying physical bullion, which must be purchased on the ABX/BCX, then why would there be limitations on who and how many can participate in the creation of the coins ? The current contracts available on the ABX (and on the BCX I am assuming once up and running) are for the following; Au; 100 gram, 1kg, 10kg: Ag; 1kg, 10kg, 25,000 Ounces. So why, if one has the money to purchase a contract that is offered on their own exchanges, are they limiting who can "be a creator" of the coins ? This is total BS. 

Again we (the commoner) are faced with trying to get a fair shake, get in on the ground floor of something, yet we are excluded because of arbitrary limitations placed upon us to keep us out of their club. 

And this incentive level crap... they say that all coins are equal in value but if I create x coins and someone else creates 10 x coins then they are entitled to a greater (percentage) incentive. BS ! The playing field should be level and its not. The person creating 10 x coins is getting 10 times the amount of incentive based on the sheer volume they create, they should not be getting a higher percentage (in addition) than someone who can only afford to create 1 x coins. 

I am bitter, yes. All along, and for days, I'd been reading and re-reading the Gold-Vu presentations and no where did they discuss a limitation for inclusion into the Ambassador's "Club"/founding member status. For an organization (BullionCoin) that seems to be trying to level the playing field and bring some truth back into money, I say they have failed miserably. Shame on you BullionCoin !!!! 

Wed, Aug 16, 2017 - 1:25pm
MrC
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well said, it makes no sence

well said, it makes no sence at all to not include as many as possible to be able to create coins frown

Wed, Aug 16, 2017 - 5:14pm (Reply to #45)
Gibbo
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Shame

Hello All,

Busy, busy day...

I didn't get to bed gone 5:30 and was up again just after 7:00 after taking 3/4 of an hour to get to sleep. It's now 23:35 so running on fumes.

Being hammered in dealing with incoming enquiries and conference calls, I still haven't been able to fully drill through every letter of the white paper yet (more sped read) - so billhilly, you're our current resident expert on its contents wink

I fully agree that there were several areas such as minimums, incentive scales and the like that I was never made aware of by either BullionCoin or ABX - they both read the content on my website relating to BullionCoin, so passing on a few of those details would have been nice. I was always under the impression it was a flat rate.

However, relating to minimums -- that applies to cash deposits not physical deposits.

Since I woke up from my power nap, I've had 3 conference calls (1hr+ ea) with BullionCoin speaking with both co-founders. At 6pm I had a conference call with ABX which included Tom Coughlin, Eric Maine (Chief Strategist), Edward Stanley (Bullion Capital COO) and Andrew Maguire where they all told me their concerns. The ABX call went on for 1h 45 mins.

Busy, busy, busy day...

I've had both sides pitch me their version of events, reasonings & justifications. The more I spoke with everyone, the muddier the water became. So I've told ABX and BullionCoin this:

I need to take a copy of all documentation both sides have which they can give me relating to changes in white paper, emails, terms and conditions, vaulting, client account agreements + the kitchen sink and more.

I need to do then do a full top to bottom analysis of my care and due diligence on BullionCoin and identify if their offering is sound and do any of ABX's concern's hold water.

This is going to take a while (maybe by start of next week or more... if I get all docs) because I want to make a sound and correct decision and recommendation based on what's written in black & white and not because someone said so.

Boy, this is going to be a few long days and lots of shuttling between the two parties whilst juggling clients and general enquiries sad

I'll drop by as and when I can.

(if you could refer any BullionCoin comments in the blogs to here as I'll be able to keep on top of queries and gripes easier) 

Be Your Own Central Bank https://www.goldvu.com
Wed, Aug 16, 2017 - 7:10pm (Reply to #47)
billhilly
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Sounds like tough sledding ahead..

David,

We are most grateful that you are kind enough to keep us informed and give you infinite hat-tips for taking the time out of what sounds like a horrendous schedule. 

Regarding the white paper, it is pretty straight forward and self explanatory. It does leave a few questions (in my mind) but I'll not trouble you with them at this point in time. 

As can be discerned from my earlier post, I'm quite deflated regarding the process that is being put forth. Its a damn shame that these policies are not more inclusive. I guess I let my expectations get the best of me once again. I honestly concluded, and was excited by the idea, that anyone who could afford to purchase an ABX/BCX contract would be welcomed as an investor. I was all ready to make it happen, and then.....well, I don't imagine I am alone.

My best wishes for your success still prevail though and I look forward to your updates. bh

Wed, Aug 16, 2017 - 8:21pm (Reply to #48)
knr999
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Thank you billhilly

For setting this topic up, it's made it easier to follow

And thank you for your great effort in feeding back to us the information that you've found out

It seems that David Gibson and Goldvu's reputation will survive this but maybe not Digital Gold Ltd's, but maybe one shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Looking forward to hearing David's assessment when he's had the time to work it all through

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 3:47am (Reply to #43)
PhiPhi
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Hi, this is my first post and

Hi, this is my first post and it's a long'un. I've had some exposure to crypto's and development in the past, in fact they are what led me to become a PM stacker. I am far from an expert on this subject but I might know more than some and thought my observations might be of use to those who have not come across cryptos before by helping them in their own assesments.

Allocation

Regarding the issue of allocation; to my mind allocation is the key one, the end result has to be a watertight, 1:1 ringfenced allocation for every gram of gold and silver represented by a coin. I noted that the GoldVu site states in it's blurb about the ABX that "Electronic Vault Warrants (Temporarily unavailable & being re-introduced soon)".

From the Bullioncoin whitepaper I noted the following seemingly contradictory paragraphs:

Each unit can be seen as a title of ownership that is easily purchased, exchanged or traded.

and

"The holder of BullionCoin is given the first lien/ non-possessory interest over the collaterals (covering holding) and granted the option to redeem in metal bars and coins as a settlement in kind."

To me this suggest that the Bullioncoin holder does not hold any title of physical PM's backing the coin just a lien over what would effectively be the property of digital Gold, whereas, an EVW (electronic Vault Warrant) is an electronic document of title, I'm prepared to be corrected on this as my legal knowledge is to say the least limited.

Technology

The technical overview was frankly disappointing to say the least covering low hanging fruit:

Cryptography
Key Storage
Privacy
KYC encryption
Multisig

No mention of how (if at all) decentralised the systems are and what parts of the system is on the blockchain and what parts are not. I'm not talking about a needing detailed technical specification in a whitepaper but it should provide enough information to get a general picture of how the system is expected to operate and any potential pitfalls.

 Fees

As far as I can tell fees on every transaction are a flat 0.58% distributed as follows:

Merchant 0.33%

Merchant or New User Enroller 0.05%

Coincreator .05-.08%

Direct eWallet Download Incentive 0.1-0.4%

Balance to Digital Gold Ltd. 0.8% - to 0.15%

Note: The Direct eWallet Download incentive is a one off commission for initial purchase.

On top of that there are Custody Fees (Demurrage Fees) of 0.025 per month calculated on every coin (or fraction of) in the eWallet, as I understand it these fees are calculated every second for each coin and added to the transaction fee when spent but I saw no indication that this cost was factored into their potential yield scenarios. Also I assume if PM's double in price so do the storage costs.

Redemption of the coins into physical PM's is a flat fee of $60 plus all transportation and taxes.

Prepaid BullionCoin denominated Card Payment

Absolutely no info on how they expect to achieve this and no mention of a Debit Card.

Marketing and Market Penetration

Besides the incentive scheme which is a good idea poorly executed nothing is said about uptake, acceptance, distribution and marketing. The coins official website is a little too condescending for my tastes and lacks substance. Without all these key element in place and well funded the coins will achieve very little velocity.

My Summary 

To my mind and with the scant information given in the whitepaper this was not the coin I was expecting or wanting. There appears to be no mechanisms in place to prevent Digital Gold from tweaking the transaction/incentive percentages to whatever they desire nor did I read anything to prevent them from moving to a fractional model if it suited their purposes. As much as possible the rules for fees and incentives need to be cast in stone within the blockchain and (as a very rough example) only changeable upon a consensus of a majority of Bullioncoin eWallet holders by weighted distribution.

For a crypto to become successful and have a chance to become money transparency is essential and Digital Gold Limited need to be the most transparent of all, no summary of Digital Gold's history, market capitalisation, total permanent staffing or assets. On their "Payment/Money flow/ Settlement" flowchart there seems to be no path to physical redemption.

On the face of it Bullioncoin at this stage looks more like another financial derivative product with some MLM thrown is for good measure, it is fully controlled by Digital Gold and reliant on their goodwill, more importantly they have legal title over all the gold backing.

The incentive scheme is all over the place and tries to be too cutesy, IMHO it should be flat for all coin originators regardless of wether your buying 100gms or 100 kilos for origination, any advantage for wholesale buys should come from the initial premium over spot.

Please be aware this is just my opinion and I am not suggesting any impropriety by any of the parties involved with Bullioncoin. I am just highlighting areas that I found contra or lacking in their solution to achieve their stated goals of a true honest, workable crypto currency.

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 6:50am (Reply to #45)
Blythesshrink
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billhilly wrote: I ask why ? 

billhilly wrote:

I ask why ? If the "coins" value themselves are based upon the underlying physical bullion, which must be purchased on the ABX/BCX, then why would there be limitations on who and how many can participate in the creation of the coins ? The current contracts available on the ABX (and on the BCX I am assuming once up and running) are for the following; Au; 100 gram, 1kg, 10kg: Ag; 1kg, 10kg, 25,000 Ounces. So why, if one has the money to purchase a contract that is offered on their own exchanges, are they limiting who can "be a creator" of the coins ? This is total BS.

Agreed and then seeing that on top of that, the underlying gold will be owned by Digital Gold - who for all we know will be leasing this gold back on to the bloody market. No way can I support that - also as a UK investor, I think I'd be forced to incur a currency conversion cost beforehand too. I've seen enough personally and will steer clear.

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 8:45am (Reply to #51)
Gibbo
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Your BullionCoin Assessments

@billhilly @PhiPhi

Thank you for your great input on the white paper - it'll help me greatly on the areas I need to question BullionCoin over.

Further to my 6ish hours of conference calls yesterday, I'm in the process of requesting documents from both BullionCoin and ABX. Both sides gave competing stories that they stated as fact, which couldn't be corroborated by conversation, so I'm hoping that the black & white docs that I receive will nail things into place.

Assuming I get all that I request, I should have, hopefully, a clearer picture by the end of the weekend.

I'll keep tabs on your valuable input regarding the white paper which I can then cross-reference against all the information I receive.

@knr999

Thank you very much for your vote of confidence.

In such times where everyone gets caught off-guard because they were acting in good faith based on the information given at the time, your comments are very much appreciated.

I've always worked to high standards of ethics and morality all my life, which is how I also run my business and help my clients.

The world of physical precious metals can't run in any other way - everything always needs to operate in the best interest of the client without question and if there are any bad actors then they need to be rooted out asap.

This situation has, interestingly enough, given me a better appreciation of the stick that Andrew Maguire sometimes gets. Even under the best of circumstances, conviction and the will to do right - it just sometimes goes widely wrong beyond your control and lets down those that you had genuine interest to help.

It goes to show that the saying about the 11th hour isn't quite right as this all turned over in a nano second after midnight :(

Any how, I've got to crack on with extracting documents from people and start doing some heavy reading.

So, until next time - keep well :)

David

Be Your Own Central Bank https://www.goldvu.com
Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 12:31pm
billhilly
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Post from BullionCoin newsletter...

dated today; reprinted here without the express permission of David yet since it is a publically available newsletter I have taken liberties. David, please let me know if I've done wrong.

BullionCoin Launch Surprise

Launches are usually great and memorable events.

Memorable it certainly was.

For any that aren't aware, the Allocated Bullion Exchange (ABX) released a statement a few minutes after BullionCoin's launch on 15th August, that they were terminating all collaboration with BullionCoin.

ABX were going to be the providers of the wholesale physical gold and silver to back BullionCoins.

Why Delay In Sending This Newsletter?

ABX's statement involved some quite serious accusations against BullionCoin, all of which were very unexpected, because until their surprise statement, ABX had very high praise for BullionCoin.

In such unexpected circumstances it is very easy to act on emotion, beat the war drums and do knee-jerk reactions, which is absolutely not in your best interest.

I wanted to wait until I had as much information from both ABX and BullionCoin before sending you this update.

Yesterday I was involved in multiple conference calls with the co-founders and CEO of BullionCoin and ABX respectively, which in total ran nearly 6 hours.

Outcome

What I realised is that the situation is far from clear.

I could not reconcile or verify either side's comments just by talk alone, as both sides had their own stories, version of events, reasoning and justifications, all of which I now need to corroborate.

To get to the bottom of this I have told both BullionCoin and ABX that I am going to have to do my own independent care & due diligence.

I need to see everything in black & white in front of me, so I am in the process of requesting all relevant supporting documentation relating to BullionCoin from both parties.

This will allow me to cross-reference it all and query both parties on any area that stands out.

I will make my own decision and recommendations as best as I can, in your interest as a potential investor in BullionCoin.

In circumstances like this, it is always best to be methodological, analytical and objective.

Anything other approach would not be in your best interest and would have the potential to damage either BullionCoin or ABX without true cause.

Others that have taken action so far, were privy to confidential information and communication between ABX and BullionCoin, when I was not, which is the reason I need to start from scratch in my analysis.

So What Now?

My recommendation to you is to just do nothing until I get back to you with my findings.

The assessment will likely take several days, possibly into next week.

I will be requesting a full set of documents, beyond the white paper, and during this process I will be in contact with both ABX and BullionCoin, clarifying areas as I progress.

I thank you for your patience in this matter as I'm sure that many of you are just as keen to understand what to do and find out if the accusations levied against BullionCoin are justified.

If my decision goes against BullionCoin then this will likely be the shortest Newsletter run in history!

So don't unsubscribe just yet, as the next issue could be a real eye opener.

Yours faithfully,

David Gibson

Managing Director, GoldVu

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 1:15pm (Reply to #52)
PhiPhi
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Cluster What?

@David - I don't envy you your job trying to unravel this train wreck and wish you the best of luck! Can't wait for the next installment.

@billhilly - Thanks for keeping us all in the loop.

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 5:10pm
happycamper515
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Bullioncoin

Is this thing dead in the water? And regardless of David's findings, what could he possibly do since he is not Bullioncoin and he is not ABX. Would like to think there is still a possibility that Bullioncoin has a future and is not just somebody's brain fart to make a quick buck that went bad. But I'm sure if it's not Bullioncoin, there will be another just like it in the not too distant future. Gotta strike while the cryto-iron is still hot.

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 9:57pm
boomer sooner
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Something smells

I have read and reread the dispatch by ABX and this one quote keeps standing out.

"ABX intends to continue work to support and / or launch its own precious metal backed digital currency. "

Could be a little "we should do this ourselves" involved? From the beginning I had thought why would ABX not issue the coins directly. They have the vaults and the physical trading.

Did ABX want to see behind the curtain? Or changed their mind after the positive response from the metals community?

One thing I didn't get is the preset GSR at 50 by Bullioncoin. And it is fixed. Or are there 2 coins? If it's one coin, why not buy silver from ABX, enter Bullioncoin at 50, sell the coin, buy another and take delivery of 1 gold? Sell the gold back to ABX and do it again? You could make the spread continously, arbitrage at its finest.

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 10:19pm (Reply to #56)
billhilly
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boomer...

...AND, to wait until 15 minutes AFTER the launch of BC ! Tell me they didn't already have a statement prepared and KNOW they were going to torpedo this thing !!!! Yes, a foul stench in the air indeed. 

About the gsr...I believe there are two distinctions of coins and that they are each separately valued. I could be wrong though. I couldn't decifer this in the white paper.

Thu, Aug 17, 2017 - 10:43pm
happycamper515
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David's Dog

So what exactly is David's dog in this fight? Has he been hurt financially and looking for a legal angle? At this point what good does it do to go back look through the white paper and all your emails if there is no legal/financial bone to pick? I never understood David's role in this...was he just a promoter? Has his reputation been damaged? 

Andrew Maguire's last words on this subject were "onwards and upwards..bigger fish to fry". In many eyes AM has made a fool of himself over this with the guaranteed 250 tonne sovereign orders that were coming. I know AM is on our side and fighting for the good guys so it doesn't really bother me.

Fri, Aug 18, 2017 - 12:49am
PhiPhi
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Digital Gold Responds to ABX

Digital Gold have released their statement dishing the dirt and not holding back.

https://www2.bullioncoin.com/reply-to-abx-15-august-2017/

Fri, Aug 18, 2017 - 9:33am (Reply to #58)
Gibbo
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Hurt? Nah..

@happycamper515

I not picking a fight or suffered from any sort of financial loss.

My position is this:

1. I have had a lot of people create an account with me at ABX with the intention of investing into BullionCoin. Several had bought metals with the intent to transfer to BullionCoin. So I owe them an objective review relating to what's happened.

2. I set up a BullionCoin Newsletter that has nearly 400 subscribers and I don't want to simply blow them off. I have a duty to them to give an objective review. I don't know their identities, so there could be many in there that are influential in their own niche and by not taking this objective approach can only serve to incorrectly damage a party and also affect my reputation and trustworthyness.

3. I was helping promote BullionCoin based on ABX's praise and support of them. I took their word based on the fact they would have done their own due diligence on BullionCoin based on the confidential information they had available to them, that I did not. So where people have visited my site to get that information and familiarised themselves with my company, I need pay the same level of attention to this issue because it has the potential to impact how people view and trust me and / or my company on-going.

4. I rank pretty much number 1 for "Allocated Bullion Exchange" and "BullionCoin" for all search engines. I have the ability to adversely impact either party if I don't treat this fairly and objectively. I don't want to abuse my position by taking a carefree approach that would damage either one without true cause. To do otherwise would be unprofessional, unfair and unethical.

I consider that, due to how I have been involved in this in my limited part, what I am doing is the correct and honourable thing to do which is also in the best interests of the following parties:

  • Clients
  • ABX
  • BullionCoin
  • Newsletter subscribers
  • Visitors to GoldVu

There is no other reason such as personal gain or financial redress.

All the best,

David

Be Your Own Central Bank https://www.goldvu.com
Fri, Aug 18, 2017 - 1:37pm
happycamper515
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David

Thanks for your response. This is all beyond your control and you've done more than enough. Good luck. 

Notice: If you do not see your new comment immediately, do not be alarmed. We are currently refreshing new comments approximately every 2 minutes to better manage performance while working on other issues. Thank you for your patience.

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