Psychopaths

29 posts / 0 new
Last post
SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
Psychopaths

Barfly introduced this topic on main by reference to Eric Berne. Dr. Berne created the theory of transactional analysis and his 1964 best seller book "Games people play" introduced the topic to the public.

The subject has continued beyond the weekend and although I was going to wait until next weekend to comment on main, I figured it was better to create the topic here so it could be thrashed out.

From the viewpoint of transactional analysis the psychopath will always take the dominant role. Petulant demanding child to your adult, guiding, demanding parent to your child and will only interact adult to adult as long as they have control. The world is their oyster and everything within belongs to them.

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
Robert Hare

Much of our knowledge of psychopaths comes from the psychologist Dr. Robert Hare. He developed the Psychopathy Check List (PCL-R) revised in 1985.

He hypothesized that the structure and/or wiring of the psychopath's brain was fundamentally different from the majority and was the biological cause of their total lack of emotion and empathy. Thus there was no way they could be "cured". This was at a time when most professionals thought the problem was one of bad parenting or early childhood trauma. In fact non criminal psychopaths are happy within themselves and see no need for a "cure".

Dr. Hare studied psychopaths in the prison system. He said that if he had not been able to go into prisons he would have used the old Vancouver Venture Stock Exchange (N.B. He worked at UBC in Vancouver). This is in some ways unfortunate since he probably studied the lower range of I.Q. among psychopaths and not those of higher I.Q. who function well within society from the point of not being criminal.

Dr. Hare is into his 80's now and he recent activity has been mostly related to comments on the work of others such as "The Wall Street Ten Percenters".

http://www.hare.org/comments/comment2.html

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
Dealing with psychopaths

Dr. Hare, the expert, admits to having been fooled by psychopaths more than once as do several of his graduate students who were trained to spot psychopaths.

So what chance does the average Joe have in dealing with these people? From my  experience in a collegial environment I think the best way is to minimize interactions, avoid confrontation and do not antagonize. If such a person is a boss or superior then I, personally, would seriously consider another position.

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
Role of psychopaths

Since psychopaths are totally lacking in emotion the more intelligent ones are well adapted to advance in hierarchical systems, since they carry no emotional baggage and so have an advantage. This explains why a group that represents maybe 1% of the general population can be found at an 8% or more level on Wall Street.

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
Corporations as psychopaths

To some extent the law is responsible since corporations are demanded to focus on the bottom line to the exclusion of other concerns.

However the nature of an infinite life and the folks running them has led to corporations acting as psychopaths. This has been seen in the destruction of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers, their remains being gobbled up as corporate dog eats dog. 

It is also seen as corporations assume control over sovereigns and the drive to a single world corporate entity.

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
The psychopath next door

Somewhat simplistic documentary but maybe worth watching.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/the-psychopath-next-door

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

realitybiter
realitybiter's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/03/2011
Hat Tips: 10970
Posts: 986
psychopaths

"the experts" figure it is one in 25.  However, typically, they are overrepresented in high level management jobs.  Empathy is not a good quality for ruthless competition.  Judges, too.  And that is where society falls apart.

I think Christians completely missed the point on "forgiving everyone".  I imagine, Jesus would likely have said, "forgive everyone except the psychopath."  You cannot.  It will not work.  You have two choices: avoid them or eliminate them.  Period.

I Run Bartertown
I Run Bartertown's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/11/2011
Hat Tips: 16153
Posts: 2272
SteveW

Interesting topic. I can't help but wonder, though. Is it not a role that needs to be played at times/places? And is maybe the danger they pose not from their nature, but merely when their goals are in opposition to your own? Sure, I've got no use for idiot criminals or sleazy corporate types...but imagine a SHTF scenario or an all-out war. I want remorseless, single-minded men around me, as many as I can find, so long as their goals align with mine. I want them utterly committed to the task, recognizing no limits of any kind in their efforts to accomplish a goal, and sleeping like a baby at night regardless of what the day might have demanded of them.

Think of Platoon. Sure, we all would rather see ourselves as Elias. But if it's my life on the line, or my family, I want to have a Barnes or be a Barnes. Elias ("we're gonna lose this war") is the nice guy. Barnes ("I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is.") wants to stop losing men, everything else be damned. There's a function for each. This clip is harsh, but the only really useless one in my book, the one who doesn't know what he is until he's told by a superior, is the Lt. Wolfe.

SteveW
SteveW's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/08/2011
Hat Tips: 9630
Posts: 1567
@ IRB

From what I've read they're good at advancement/leadership but weak on execution. I guess if they have enough gophers it works.

Regarding your general point, if they had absolutely no value I suspect that brain type would have been eliminated.

__________________

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”
― Albert Camus

SilveryBlue
SilveryBlue's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/07/2013
Hat Tips: 4835
Posts: 1145
maybe we should agree what a psychopath actually is first?

http://www.sott.net/article/264519-How-to-protect-yourself-from-a-successful-psychopath

I have met & worked with at least 2 of them. They take a bit of sorting IMHO

Side note: Have survived. Can see there are more of them. Don't really want to engage.

ata
ata's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/03/2011
Hat Tips: 21258
Posts: 3690
PSYCHO'S

Exist to keep the general population awake.

They are a form of parasite.

Without them entropy would set in.

Long live the natural order.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Psycho.gif    giphy.gif

__________________

In high tide fish eat the ants, in low tide ants eat the fish. - Thai proverb

Joseph Warren
Joseph Warren's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/09/2013
Hat Tips: 14887
Posts: 775
Tough Decisions & Tough Acts

I disagree that one may need to be a psychopath to take actions which are absolutely necessary during very difficult circumstances. This includes war. - A psychopath is incapable of feeling any emotions for others. His acts are only to benefit himself. They are impulsive, completely self centered, egoists and personal glory hounds. If that means the men under them will be slaughtered, so be it. If that means switching sides to benefit themselves (if they can get away with it) - so be it.

An example of real leadership was that of General George Washington during the American Revolution. He was a man capable of making tough decisions. He put out an order that any American soldier found torturing prisoners would face the death penalty for such actions. He knew what was right & wrong. He knew that America could not give up the moral high ground in her struggle against the British Empire. George Washington was a real leader and a real, thinking and feeling man.

LostMind
LostMind's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2015
Hat Tips: 7745
Posts: 676
Been married to one and have had a couple of bosses

Psychopaths fall in a couple of different "rating" classes. The Borderline personality disorder and the Narcissistic personality disorder. We could go into histrionics etc, but the above two are the ones most people are aware of.

The BPD is born out of abandonment while the NPD is born out of the every loving and doting parent who fully ingratiates the childs selfish side. The BPD has the five minute window with everyone except its target, who they will destroy if threatened (which is almost all the time) and the NPD just puts on an air of superiority that views everyone beneath them.

These are two primary personality types that I believe EVERYONE should get to know and be able to spot them on demand!  The NPD is impossible to get close to, sure they will humor you and you may think you have friendship, but it is only as long as you are willing to agree with everything they say... The BPD is really only a danger to those they attach themselves to. The whole "I hate you don't leave me!" syndrome.

In my opinion, both of these are psychopaths. They just have the mental "awareness" not to go to far. The idea that we would only call murderers Psychopaths is bullshit. Psychopaths create mental and emotional hell for those around them. Like being put in a blender and begging the person not to hit the puree button.

Unfortunately, we have "normalized" so many of these bad traits that the courts regularly give them a pass. They are usually very extroverted and come across as very likable. While you the now "non-normal" person is viewed as the trouble maker... It really is insane just how fucked up we have gotten as a race.

We are taught to be nice to everyone, we are taught to forgive the bully, we are told that you must fit in or you are the problem, we are taught success is being everyone's friend, we are taught that we all deserve recognition regardless of how or what we did...

We are not allowed to be different, we are not allowed to be an individual, we are programmed to be less human, which leads us to more psychopaths...

LostMind
LostMind's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2015
Hat Tips: 7745
Posts: 676
And I agree with JW above

10 hat tips

I would rather have a mentally healthy person in the foxhole with me than the psychopath. The key to survival is working together. You can not work with a psychopath, their way is the only way and no matter what you try to do, they will get their way...

Joseph Warren
Joseph Warren's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/09/2013
Hat Tips: 14887
Posts: 775
The 'utility' of Psychopathy

Perhaps psychopathy gave those with it a way to get over on others, to take advantage of them. IMO it hasn't benefited Humanity in any way. The current media and 'schooling' systems were purposely shaped as weapons against the general population by psychopaths. Those systems help keep people propagandized, ignorant & enslaved.

In a tiny sliver of the time that human beings have been on this planet, - our technology has far outstripped  our wisdom. For the first time in history, we have the capacity to destroy all life on the planet in a few hours,

We may find out the real 'utility' of psychopathy some day.

Barfly
Barfly's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/28/2014
Hat Tips: 12741
Posts: 516
Thanks, Guys

Thanks for starting this thread, SteveW. The drawback, of course, is that we have already gotten the attention of non-paying professional psychopathic game playing trolls that lurk to disrupt the discussion. So, it's a trade-off. I imagine that soon, the substantive parts of the topic will be obscured by a wall paper of troll babble. No matter.

It is interesting that one of the first memes to show up is the "glorification of the psychopath" meme. This is a propaganda meme that is quite common and it is very wrong. The idea that the psychopath is necessary or better in certain types of situations is a bunch of hooey. First, it's riddled with fallacy. I submit that one would not need to be in a foxhole with a psychopath if a psychopath weren't responsible for the war. War is the ultimate profit making enterprise and the end game of every psychopathic objective.

Finally, as SteveW did an excellent job describing games as defined by Berne, I have a couple of caveats. I percieve psychopaths as operating outside of the parent/adult/child dynamic Berne describes. They certainly imitate those modes, but I personally feel, as I have no objective way to test it, that they exist in a unique psychopathic mode that transitions in and around and through the imitation of the parent/adult/child mode according to how they are trying to manipulate those around them. Thus, the psychopathic game seeks to manipulate people into involuntary unequal relationships, seeks to deprive them of property, seeks to bring them harm, or manipulate them into making decisions or taking actions that they would not normally take. This is a subtle distinction, but I believe it important.

Joseph Warren
Joseph Warren's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/09/2013
Hat Tips: 14887
Posts: 775
@Barfly - Re: the Psychopath meme

yes, the meme that psychopaths exists, what they are, and their overwhelming influence and destructiveness to Humanity is jumped on immediately in any public discussions. 'They' don't want people to go down that path. It is extremely dangerous to 'them'. What if people saw through them ?  What if people ignored them ?  The illusion of their power would evaporate

We human beings have our failings. But, for the most part, the majority of us just want to live a decent life and take care of our families. I've observed that if you sit down and talk with most people, share a meal and get to know each other - most people get along just fine. The other person becomes real, not just a stereotype in your mind. The average normal person around the world has much more in common with each other than they have with the true psychopaths manipulating the rest of Humanity.

Nick Elway
Nick Elway's picture
Online
Joined: 06/14/2011
Hat Tips: 5151
Posts: 906
Charisma .. I don't trust it

Canary wondered why the small % of psychopaths have a large % of followers

https://www.tfmetalsreport.com/comment/517974#comment-517974

Charisma could be a clue..from

http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html

Quote:

headline snip: charismatic nut job

#1) Sociopaths are charming. Sociopaths have high charisma and tend to attract a following just because people want to be around them. They have a "glow" about them that attracts people who typically seek guidance or direction.

snip..

#2) Sociopaths are more spontaneous and intense than other people.

snip

#8) Sociopaths speak poetically. They are master wordsmiths, able to deliver a running "stream of consciousness" monologue that is both intriguing and hypnotic. They are expert storytellers and even poets. As a great example of this in action, watch this interview of Charles Manson on YouTube.

snip

#9) Sociopaths never apologize. They are never wrong. They never feel guilt. They can never apologize. Even if shown proof that they were wrong, they will refuse to apologize and instead go on the attack.

It seems to me followers look for charismatic "dynamic" leaders,  leaders that are sure they are right, leaders that don't "waffle", leaders to give them some clear direction. In other words, leaders that have sociopath/psychopath characteristics. 

Ruffian
Ruffian's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2011
Hat Tips: 12472
Posts: 3369
Fyi

They have done extensive imaging of psycopathic and sociopathic brain scans and they all have the same highlighted portions of the brain in the frontal lobe extensively highlighted. While it's not found I other portions of the population, was a fascinatin study to watch.

anyway I'm fairly certain I'm one of those "paths" just not sure which one,

LostMind
LostMind's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2015
Hat Tips: 7745
Posts: 676
Thinking Barfly is Tyler Durden...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-11/methods-fighting-back-against-collectivist-tyranny

Excellent article on psychopaths. I do believe there is a difference between the sociopath and the psychopath.

Maybe the Sociopath is the general selfish all about me and the psychopath is the all about complete control and domination. Striking at generalities not making a statement...

question
question's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/14/2011
Hat Tips: 3396
Posts: 678
Sorry Ruffian

your's must be a different "path" altogether; you've got too much empathyheart

__________________

Learn to behave

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Syndicate contentComments for "Psychopaths"