Re: "another believer that thought the devil had a ménage à trois with Adam and Eve, and the Jews are the literal, physical offspring of Satan."
Yes, that is complete crap. I'm not sure I ever understand how many "believers" can be so deceived. It's unfortunate such nonsense gets propagated.
Here is the old link I found, I posted it once under 'Christian Identity' in the 'Old Zionism' folder.
You will have to read further to the end of the thread to find the references we talked of last. The Adam-Eve-Satan thing.
Please, visit the site listed and the references in the post, it's a gem as to where this whole 'Who Biblical Israel is' can lead on to if one is not grounded in the scriptures.
I agree 100%, it is always best to let Scripture speak for itself.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise." - Galatians 3:28-29
The wall has been torn down and we are all one in Christ
Ok Dr P....... I will stand by this post below, if you give me one more hyperlink in response to direct questions and honest questions, I will assume you are a bot and and incapable of serious personal exchange. Lets go back to this post and see if we can get some real honest answers, and please, enough with the hyperlinks. just type what you believe. PLEASE.
Answer all or any of the three below
Ok if we are going to do this dance again on this thread I am going to take a different route this time. Over the last 4-5 years I have contended with many regarding who Biblical Israel is, you can find much of it in the ‘Old Zionism’ thread which was locked when Turd went over to the new site if you care to read it. I am not retyping it all again. I will go find old posts but I am too busy to retype it all again.
I have spired with atheists, agnostics, new agers and those openly hostile to Christianity and the Gospel of God, misinformed Christians and even grossly deceived false Christians as well.
Not sure which category you fall into quite yet, not my place to judge, all I can do is render a verdict on what you post theologically whether it is true to the scriptures or not, so, that said, let me ask some questions.
Let me also preface this by saying if this is going to be a conversation than it should be between your thoughts and mine. Everything I have posted here at TFMR comes from my study of the scriptures regarding this topic, not some link, not some quote, although I will use them from time to time, but directly from me, so I would expect the same in return. Talk to me. Don’t just post links to someone else’s thoughts. You can get that in DOTS.
I suspect you are a Christian, a Believer based on your avatar. I once suggested that NW pick one and posted that image of Pilgrim from John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress and a possibility, have not seen that avatar used until you started posting. So I will assume you are a believer unless you say otherwise, Good choice.
I am sure you are familiar with the Abrahamic covenant, hey Dr P? The covenant was between God and Abraham, and it was an unconditional Covenant no less, (Gen 13:14-15) this was a Promise to Abraham and then in turn to the seed of promise….. Through Isaac and then Jacob (Israel) and it included a very specific piece of real-estate. Very specific, From the river Jordan to the great river Euphrates. Gen 15:18
“And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.” Gen 13:14-15
“And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” Gen 17:8
“And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.” Gen 48:4
“Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever” Ex 32:13.
So Dr. P….. Who owns that land???, who has title to it in Gods eyes….. the Church or Israel????
Before you answer remember the only NATION that the Lord has any national covenants with is Israel according to the OT, granted one may argue America is under a conditional Deuteronomy 28 covenant with the Lord but that is another topic.
Was Jesus a Jews?
I ask this because the road your on leads down some very dark paths, British Israel, Identity theology, Replacement theology, even white Supremist movements claim to now be the “Israel of God’, it’s a dark hole if you dig deep enough.
Who is America in scripture?
Are we mentioned? Are we now the Israel of God and what does that imply nationally.
The reason I ask is that blindness in one eye usually implies blindness in the other.
Will await you answers before I ask more questions.
Tetelestai is a Greek word that is documented to have been used in an accounting context during Biblical times to denote 'paid in full'.
It also means "It is finished."
God's last words as a Man. One would assume them to be a consequential and comprehensive statement.
To think otherwise seems a bit off. Like something from a 100 year old cult or something. Is it true that Scofield's annotations refer to it as "Making good progress here. Almost done."? I don't have a copy handy to check.
The Land! The Land! The Land!...that's all I ever see or hear.
You can seek after the land, I'll seek after the Lord.
God doesn't need "land" any longer, He through Christ lives in each believer.
We are talking the prophetic, Bile prophecy, some topics should be best left alone unless one is ready to be carried away into the wilderness to a very dry, and dark place, that talks of judgment, most souls cannot stomach it, trust me. Rev 17:3
Your right, just following Christ is good, sound advice; do that, don’t mess with this part of scripture unless you are led by the Lord and not just out of mere curiosity. imho. It is a difficult place, not all are called here, just another distraction for most from the narrow way.
What part regarding the Eternal unconditional promised in the Abrahamic Covenant with regards of the physical land do you not understand?
God gave it to Abraham and his seed of promise, in turn, to Isaac, then Jacob. (Israel)
(As) an everlasting possession…..
will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession…..
“All this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever”.
When exactly did that end and when did the Lord renege on that promise Dr. P????
Whose land is it now??? The Church’s???, …. should we invade Israel and expel the Jews, concour Jerusalem like Islam is begging to do???. Really… if you believe the Bible, who’s land is it right now.????
IRB, Good to see you back.
I know we have discussed this at length in the past and I have spent the better part of my life trying to understand this issue, yet even I, see through a glass darkly. But I still stand by my statement one can prove, by reading the entire Bible, multiple times, that the Bible is True in just one word….. “Jew”.
They were the chosen race to bring forth Messiah, though a hard necked, rebellious people, they fell away, they returned, and when He finally showed up they rejected Him.
Yet they are the only people God has a National, and Eternal covenant with, (except for a small concession on my part with regards to America and Deuteronomy 28 which is a conditional covenant)
“Tetelestai”…. It is finished, agreed in regards to our redemption, it is finished, by God. But, you have to read the whole OT and NT with regards to National Israel, Gen to Rev to get the big picture, most will not do that, I would venture to say most here have not read the OT or even studied it, even the Christians here, dangerous ground if discussing this topic, imho.
Anyway, hope that helps, tough topic. Good to see you
" dangerous ground if discussing this topic "
What ground, from your reading of Scripture, ought we expect to be on?
still about "the Land" I see.
Well, God bless! I'm done here.
"Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." Gal 3:16-17
"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body." 1 Cor 6:19-20
re: 'All this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever”."
as I've already posted, but I'll repost as you (and others) may have missed it:
"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise." Gal 3:27-29 (My bold)
I look forward to the new heavens and the new earth, and New Jerusalem, the Holy City, may God find me acceptable to Him in Christ. As it is written:
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” Rev 21:1-4
Re: "Yet they are the only people God has a National, and Eternal covenant with, (except for a small concession on my part with regards to America and Deuteronomy 28 which is a conditional covenant)"
I dare ask what Bible are you reading? Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah, etc etc etc etc are not Jews, and God certainly has an "eternal" covenant with them, as He does with me also, through Christ. In fact, the "eternal" covenant is right there in Genesis:
"He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel. ... Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.” Gen 3:15,20 (my bold)
America and Deut 28 is such nonsense as to not even be worthy of further comment.
Wake up man! You said yourself you are only seeing things as through a dark glass...In the name of Jesus, I pray that you be led back into the light!
Part two Different focus............
OK, Ok, Ok, been a real long day, I conversed tonight with one friend's family, long time friend and he is an employee now in ICU, I have been visiting him frequently, he probably will not survive the week. All this while on the way to visit another friend in the ER tonight, I'm home now, and I thought I would log on and get away from real worlds events for a few moments and just read in. But......
I guess not...... some of you people get my ire up, so.... too tired to respond, but let me say I am passionate about speaking out against false teaching and false theology which have people enslaved to it, and the falsehoods propagated that which dishonors God. So I post.
Will post again when I can, but...... get ready to defend yourself, .
When I have my breath back I will challenge these posts above.
In the mean time, if you all want a reality check, visit someone in the ER or ICU been there multiple times this past week.
What would you say to them????
Would you tell them about the 'Evil Jews' and 'Evil Zionists' that are destroying the world and 'western civilization'??
Sorry, don't mean to be curt or short but even I have a limit to my patients.
@ BN, Kyle.... good to see you, thanks for the support.... imho, they will not listen.
BTW - Probably should have posted this in ToF, because Mike and George need prayer, neither one may see the end of the week.
“still about "the Land" I see. Well, God bless! I'm done here.”
Well Dr P. …….That is fine with me, I have better ways to spend my time as well.
“The land,” Dr. P, the physical land that you and your errant theological belief system deny, and it’s ramifications, are something you simply cannot dodge. Israel has been regathered in this century, Matt 24, Mark 21, Luke 13, they Israel is the fig tree, and regathered in apostasy, in an anti-God state of mind, because there are too many numerous unfilled promised the Lord made National Israel that have not seen literal fulfilment. But they will.
We are all rebels, I might add. (Just like we all are before conversion) unless you are different?
Your approach to Biblical discussions is almost liken to the JW’s that bang on my door Saturday mornings and say Jesus Christ was not God in the flesh, they never bring any honestly exchange and discuss the scriptures to support their arguments, just regurgitate what they have been fed so I’m not sure what camp you are in, because you won’t open up, come out of the shadows and actually talk to me, now will you??
Come on I’m harmless, just trying to bring this discussion into the light without a bunch of hyperlinks
“re: 'All this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever”."as I've already posted, but I'll repost as you (and others) may have missed it:”
OK, Dr. P, maybe I am just dense, but where in that Gal NT passage does it address the promised land of the Abrahamic covenant…… ????
Jj is a, ‘Spiritual Israelite’, as are all other believers in Christ, granted, as are you as a believer. Israel did not accept Him, and Thank God they did not, read Romans 9-11 (Someone please read Romans 9-11 here before posting again), but when are you going to answer my questions???
IRB, ………your turn, like I said before, really want to do all this again??
"dangerous ground if discussing this topic
"What ground, from your reading of Scripture, ought we expect to be on?”
IRB, you might be able to pull and old post when I said that, but I really doubt it, but when did I ever say this was “dangerous ground”??
It is dangerous ground for the unstudied scripturally, imho, only because it can distract one from the basics of the faith and out of the narrow way if it consumes one and they are unbalanced in the reading and studying of scripture.
I have said to Dr. P and you as well in the past, you might want to stick with the fundamentals of the faith and not get tied up in this eschatology issues No? It is too easy for unstudied believers to get sidetracked in these issues, (Not saying you are such) but listen to this warning from Paul if you doubt me.
“And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing” I Cor 13:2.
Let me give a modern paraphrase lest you miss it……. OK brothers and sister, if one know EVERYTHING, all about the NWO, the banking cartel, the money changers, the evil Zionists in the NWO, all the deep dark secrets of this world that have been kept from one and others eyes by fraud, and “All mysteries”.
And if one knows all the dark secrets of all the ‘YouTube info videos’ posted on the Internet, and if ……….. One doesn’t love ones friends, love ones kids, love ones neighbors, love ones enemies, even love ones wife,……. One may come up short, and end being NOTHING………… IF…….. ONE DOES NOT Agape Love (charity)………….. One may miss the point of everything regarding the Christian Faith.
Got it???, imho, many spend all too much time worried about the evil Jews and Zionism and the NWO and potentially are spending time on the wrong issues, Like I told you once, look for community, look for Christian fellowship, look for love anywhere you can, spread love, but do in , for the name. and Glory of Christ, or it means NOTHING.
Big, Big hint in that passage folks. Love…….. Charity……. Agape is EVERYTHING and Agape is foreign to us, we lost it at the fall, and that is what is restored at rebirth in Christ. Walk in it.
In the end, The Zionists don’t Matter, the NWO doesn’t Matter, the US economic and political situation DOES NOT MATTER…………
NOTHING ELSE MATTERS in the end,…………………………. are you all hearing me yet ?????????
Dr. P . Your turn again… imho, you are now embarrassing yourself, you should sit down, study, and wait till you are learned enough to discuss these issues, not that your questions and comments are not welcome, but you strike me as someone with an agenda, you are not here to discuss, you are not here to exchange, you hate the Jews don’t you???, you blame them for the whole world woes and you want blood right?
I dare ask what Bible are you reading? Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah, etc etc etc etc are not Jews, and God certainly has an "eternal" covenant with them, as He does with me also, through Christ. In fact, the "eternal" covenant is right there in Genesis
Really what convent is that??? There are numerous covenant,s are we talking about the Abrahamic? That leads you back to Isaac and then Jacob and the Irealisties No?
If not, please point it out in scripture, The Lord did promise to bless all nations through ABRAHAM. Just who specifically ‘nationally’, is mentioned in Gen 3:15.
You’re not another one of those that are into ‘bloodlines’ are you?
Have you ever even read Deuteronomy 28 Dr. P??? I would bet my last dollar you can’t even find the book, let alone have ever read it.
The light, ah……… the light……… THE light……….. I know the light, I don’t believe in it. I know the light (Him)
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved”
Notice closely it does not say……. Believeth in the light…… but cometh to the light, big, big difference, most people will never do that, they just ‘believe’, they don’t want to be rebuked or reproved and have their deeds reproved so they never come to the light.
Ok let’s shift gears a little, Dr. P, I will assume you, being a believer in the Bible, both OT and NT, believe it is the Word of God, right?, His revelation in written form to mankind?, No?
Unless you inform me otherwise, I will assume so. I only ask this because I have had interaction with another believer here at TFMR that said the OT was a “comic book”. Ha!
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” Zech 12:10.
“If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.” Zech 13:6
Dr. P these are Messianic prophecies and Messianic passages, No? in 12:10…. is that talking to the Church, which DID NOT exist when Christ was crucified or Israel?, who is going to ‘one day, look on him whom they have pierced” and ‘grieve bitterly’?????
The Church?????........ Or Israel???
Christ still has his wounds from the crucifixion, but has not any pain, in 13:6… who are the ‘friends’ ???
Why would he call them that, (Israel), they rejected Him and crucified Him, why does Christ not call them ‘enemies’ as you view them.???
OK Daniels turn…..
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city, (Jerusalem) to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Dan 9:24.
Daniel is an OT book given to Israel correct? So ‘thy people’ has to be Israel and ‘thy Holy city has to be Jerusalem’ No?
It’s not Washington D.C.
Just when did “everlasting righteousness”, global peace, and the ‘Loin laying down with them lamb’ start??,( Isaiah 11)
Is that here now?? Tell me where you live I would like to move there.
“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in AGAIN. (Again…..Future tense to when Romans was written)
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 17-24.
Please explain these passages to me Dr. P.
Who is the ‘Olive tree’ and who is the ‘Wild Olive tree’ and the branches that are grafted into it, and just who was ‘cut off’ but is yet going to be ‘grafted’ in AGAIN. ????
Theological Fact; Christians are grafted into Gods redemptive plan for Israel, and it is not the other way around, you sir, are the target of Paul’s comment in not being ‘high-minded’, which imho, you are, based on your posts alone.
I could go on and on but there are so many holes in that theological boat you’re sitting in I am surprised you don’t realize it does not float or hold water.
Said a couple prayers for your two friends. God bless.
"IRB, you might be able to pull and old post when I said that, but I really doubt it, but when did I ever say this was “dangerous ground”??
I have said to Dr. P and you as well in the past, you might want to stick with the fundamentals of the faith ..."
I don't have to go back so far. It's post #250, exactly six posts up from here where you
"really doubt it, but when did I ever say ..."
The context here (don't mislead, we're on the same forum page and everyone will see) is that I mentioned the words of Jesus. You responded that that was dangerous ground to discuss the exact words of Jesus without additional resources and interpretations. I hoped I'd misunderstood, because what I had just read runs contrary to both my personal faith, as well as so much I've read on ToF that is distinctly contrary to such claims. So I asked, hoping for clarification.
And your clarification is that, in lieu of discussing Jesus and his words to us, that I should:
"It is dangerous ground for the unstudied scripturally, imho, only because it can distract one from the basics of the faith and out of the narrow way if it consumes one and they are unbalanced in the reading and studying of scripture.
I have said to Dr. P and you as well in the past, you might want to stick with the fundamentals of the faith"
I refute your claims that I should avoid contemplating the words of Jesus. In fact, I find them contemptible. I shudder to think what "fundamentals of the faith" you'd have me put before Him, or what "basics of the faith" you think He would distract me from.
Maybe it is time, JJ, to look to the ground under your own feet. I'm here on my Rock, and I'm just fine.
I refute your claims that I should avoid contemplating the words of Jesus.
IRB, I'll have to go back and re read the previous posts, and our exchanges. If I even in the slightest way implied that I should be called out. Never intended for it come come off that way but here is the quote in context
I will stand by that post and not recant at this point.
I hate red letter Bibles, it implies that 'only' a portion of the Bible that are actually Jesus Words are the ones in the NT in 'Red'.
IRB, The entire BIBLE are Jesus's Words, both NT and OT. When discussing this topic, Zionism and eschatology, most people, and even most Christians have never read the entire OT let alone studied it in any depth. They are all the Words of God - Jesus Christ No?
It is dangerous ground if one is not studied in the entire Bible and the OT regarding this topic. Just search, Zion, mount Zion, in any program, it comes up and is referenced and referred to something like 450 times in the OT alone. Those are the Words of Jesus Christ as well, the entire OT. Many do not understand that.
That is why many theologies are so out of balance and off the mark.
Glad your on the rock brother, safest place to be.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:1-5
Thanks Dr P.
This is a tough topic, one I am passionate about because of the lack of true teaching coming out of the churches and pulpits.
When this country abandons and turns it's back on Israel, it's game over for the USA/Babylon the Great.
I have posted this before but.....
"In the essentials of the Faith Unity, in the non Essentials of the Faith, Liberty, in everything regarding the faith, Charity"
Why, oh why, does the world operate this way? The minority, in any field, knowing the Truth, seeking Truth, speaking it, will find trouble. It is always safe to align with the majority. Jesus and His followers have learned the lesson of being in the minority. We find the truth in that location.
If we join the party, vote for the majority opinion, march with the largest crowd, side with the professional view, we will avoid problems in this blinded world. If one challenges their views: Politics, global warming, divided steeple house religions, banking, fiat paper, alternative medicine, racism, white privilege, while seeing the truth, trouble will be at your doorstep. The only real freedom is within the true discovery of "ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free" and what is Truth? He said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" and all Zionism is lost as we behold Him, being including within His place that He has prepared for us. Jim