“We have bigger things we need to be fighting”. How true.
Bugzy can see it also, the growth of Western civilization and America in particular is directly attributable to individual liberty, and the demise of Western civilization is the direct result of removing those same individual liberties.
We have all read many of the same things, and our knowledge of these topics is quite similar.
I can agree to disagree, as I have said, spirituality is a profoundly individual thing, and I do not believe there is any such thing as a “one size fits all” theology. I am genuinely happy for you that you have found what you are looking for.
I have noticed that blaming the collapse of Western civilization on the collapse of Christianity is almost a uniquely Christian perspective,(I find such a theme woven into many of the stories that I read). I don't deny that it is a contributing factor, just seeing how our government has pretty much outlawed any such teachings in a public forum is enough evidence for me that Christianity is on the decline, in fact, in certain government circles, it is being labeled as a “terrorist threat”.
In the meantime, the mainstream news outlets want us to be talking about the 44 idiots that showed up for their black mass. This has nothing to do with the decline of Western civilization.
Many are labeling this as the cause of the collapse, but I see it as a symptom of the collapse, as the one cause is we lost our “freedom of religion”. A multigenerational propaganda campaign took care of the rest.
For what we have come to know as the “Evil Empire” to successfully destroy Western civilization, it is vitally important for them to place the blame on anything other than the true cause. (Themselves).
When this all comes unglued, (and it will), capitalism will be blamed, the politicians will be blamed, the moral decay will be blamed, and democracy will be blamed. In essence, we will be told that it is our own fault.
Neatly avoided in all of these explanations, will be the Western banking cartel, who hijacked and subverted all of these institutions, and took them down one at a time both separately and simultaneously.
Those trillions of dollars that they stole will never be mentioned.
These guys have no problem starting World War III to divert attention.
I have at least had the experience of discussing these very issues for the better part of the past year with members on this site. I can already tell you, it's not likely that any minds were changed in any significant manner.
We will all continue to believe what we have come to believe to be true.
To the huge extent, we all believe in God, and we have all met in this place at this time.
We have all chosen our belief systems, although some of them were chosen for us, but nevertheless, we all have one. I chose mine, and you chose yours. I personally find it amazing how firm a human being can hold on to these beliefs.
Life really does reflect, (and experientially confirms) what we believe.
They (our beliefs) genuinely run to the very core of our being.
Can we at least agree that we are not enemies?
This would go a long way towards surviving what is headed our way.
and peace be with you also,
It is not my desire to argue with any of the folks who have posted on this thread, but it is my desire to express both my sadness, and my disappointment, at what has transpired. May it be received in the same spirit with which it is offered.
Sometimes I think that we, as Christians, are guilty of taking the Lord's name in vain in that we speak of Him so glibly and so incessantly, as though He were just some politician, or rock star, or famous professor from the halls of academia. And, as we do this, we lose sight of the very reason we desire to honor Him in the first place. He becomes common to us, and a 'commoner' among us...and we act as though our arguments, and our insights, will overcome the rigidity of another's 'religion', which they claim is no religion, at all. And, to what end? Is anything ever resolved, other than the need to argue and dispute even further? Do we ever heed the Lord's own admonition to 'shake the dust off our sandals' and to move on, when we are unwelcome at the house of those we are visiting?
Several have mentioned that they have nothing against Jesus, or Christianity. They say that he was great at teaching us how we should live, or that they think as highly of Him as we do...yet they never say they believe Him to be truly God, and truly man...or, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. What, I ask, is the common ground upon which we can break bread regarding things Eternal? Do they have any knowledge of Jesus, the Christ?...or, do they even, in sincerity, desire to delve deeper into this matter?.. There is a great difference between a man laboring under the Scriptures and attempting to learn from them what is in them, and a man looking down at them with a jaundiced eye, or a pre-conceived notion, or a proud spirit. We are sometimes tempted to call to our side the laws of nature in order to say that we can all come to an agreement if we will just try hard enough, but I contend that water and oil do not mix; and that we are on a fool's-errand when we attempt to argue the 'unsearchable riches of Christ' to those who are unwilling to look, or to listen.
Every once in a while, around here, Puck's name is remembered and revered. He was famous for saying his 'religion' (although he claimed to be an atheist) boiled down to this: Don't lie, and don't take somebody else's stuff. He was also famous for saying something like this: If nothing I can say will change your mind, then there isn't much sense in thinking a conversation will accomplish anything. There is a lot of wisdom in what Puck said. I always admired his straight-forwardness, but I always cringed when I contemplated the natural progression of his thinking, because life is a two-way street. And if Puck could say that to us, then we should be able to say the same thing to him. I am fairly certain that he would not care to hear anything I might have to say about 'faith in Christ'. So be it then...and so be it now!
It makes me quite sad that we are three pages into a thread that is titled "Satanism, Christianity, and the Problem of Evil" (very unfortunate title, imo), and no one, thus far, has muttered the sentence or the sentiment, "I desired to know nothing amongst you but Christ, and Him crucified." Perhaps, it is just a holier-than-thou attitude expressing itself through me...or, perhaps, it truly is, the saddest of all sad truths that may be found in Christendom today; that we play with feathers while the precious Blood of Christ, our Redeemer, falls unnoticed and unmentioned by the way, onto the ground.
Sometimes I think we all love the sound of our own voices far more than we should. Sometimes I think that the fear of the Lord is where all wisdom begins. Sometimes I think it would be good if we all desired more of the latter, and less of the former. But this is no easy quest where great intellects flourish, and I think that this thread is proof of that.
I've said enough. Even I am tired of me. I will continue to read here, but this is my only post. Like I said, I have no interest in debate or argument. My heart belongs to Another, and I am helpless to be more open-minded than I have already shown. Nothing I have read here has helped more than it has hindered, but that's just me....NWD...who is no man's enemy, and who delights to see another man's child prospering in creative endeavors!
"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." II Tim. 1:12
This note is only for those who belong to Him. I lost sleep last night on pondering if I should just depart and leave this forum to the witchcraft behind it. We herein are not the Church. If we were local and meeting together, we would call for the elders of the Church and confront the Jezebel spirit within it. This is not new, we have witnessed it many times before. I feel like I am at the gates of a strong city under siege.
This site has almost destroyed the "Thread of Faith' forum and I think so by design. I had a P.M. last night from a member who saw it instantly, they have discernment, the discernment we were looking for. If you do not understand that spirit then read the following or one of many other articles as a warning to the Church and I also give this same warning:
If you looking to discover witchcraft, then look no further. You found it. I will not spent fruitless time in pointing fingers at those who are wolves in sheep's clothing, it is easy to discern. I also like NWD am not interested in wrangling with the many. There are a few who claim His name who need a sound rebuking and I think much more. All have herein witnessed the power of the enemy working through the few. It is time to move onward. Jim
"If you looking to discover witchcraft, then look no further. You found it. "
I must've missed that one in this thread.
I do understand the origins of such sediment.
It saddens me.
NW VIEW, say what you mean - point the finger where you want to point it. I'm the only woman on this thread. I'm not stupid.
Now someone emailed Fix to claim I was wrong to speak because I was a female, as if my specific Christian views were specific to my gender - was that you? I am only following the Christianity of the great C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton. Funny, I don't hear anyone saying "Well, Fix has a lot of false doctrine he's spewing, and it's because of his gender."
If you want to argue for the inerrant scripture then stand up and do it. If you want to say that Catholics and Anglicans are full of it, just say it. But my gender has nothing to do with my defense of my particular Christian tradition, as I did not invent it. I am only explaining it.
Why are women evangelizing in the church? When men abdicate their responsibilities, you think women should still keep their mouths shut?
It saddens me that you are taking this and making it an issue of my gender, and using ridiculous terms like "Jezebel spirit" instead of just stating your beliefs in a direct way.
This is a rather ugly side to fundamentalist Christianity - a paranoia that runs so deep that you cannot even acknowledge that different Christians have a slightly different worldview, and if heaven forbid, a woman expresses it, she's got a "Jezebel spirit" instead of just reading a lot of C.S. Lewis.
I have learned enough respect for other Christians that I do not completely write off fundamentalist Christians as evil, even though I do not agree with some of their doctrine.
Here I am, trying to get Bugzy and Fix to see some good in Christianity, and trying to say things in a way they might understand, because fundamentalist Christianity is clearly a turn-off to them...and you are apparently so caught up in the pride of your position - and pride that you are right and I am wrong - that you just start slinging accusations of "Jezebel spirit" and other insinuations without being upfront and clear about it.
I am seriously disappointed in you, and I honestly thought you were a better man than this. I also think you owe me an apology for throwing that out there like that. Wow.
Now if I misread your meaning there, I apologize. But I know of no other way to interpret "Jezebel spirit" other than "I'm pointing my finger at the female in the room."
I will tell you that my honest opinion is that the Catholic Church - as flawed as she is - is under vicious spiritual attack now, from without and within, and some fundamentalist Christians are piling on with the atheists and other church-haters instead of defending their follow Christians.
Yes, Catholics/Anglicans disagree with Bible-based Christians about whether the Bible is 100% literal and inerrant.
But if that is your SOLE reason for bashing Catholics/Anglicans, or calling any Anglican female a "Jezebel spirit" for expressing the Christianity of her upbringing, rather than focusing on what you have in common with her - shame on you.
You are inadvertently working for the enemy by bringing other Christians down in this way.
You want to know why Christianity isn't doing better in America? This is one reason why - people who are so convinced that their dogma is the best one that they can't even give respect to their fellow or sister Christians about it. No WONDER people like Bugzy and Fix are turned off.
Then pray to Jesus and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Don't listen to your church elder who may be spewing hatred under the guise of spiritual authority. Ask Christ Himself whether He wants you attacking other Christians in this manner.
I am no expert on Witch Craft, nor do I have exceptional Spirit Discernment.
I admit the title of the thread doesn't sit well within my Spirit as it places Satanism before Christianity in the title when perusing the Forums. (this is a product of the forum location abbreviation title function, and not an intentional choice to give satan predominance imho).
But it is what it is, and may well lead to a broadening of the darker aspects as the thread progresses, We will see, I suppose.
This causes an unintentional reading of the word satan which I abhor, and normally would skip over a tread named such, whereas it may well draw a different person for a different reason than and exploration of evil within a Christian society.
So far this is not the case, and current participation has been cordial and informative.
And I thank everyone who has shared their thoughts.
As a Christian my Lord is to be placed first in my Life, and my duty as a servant of God is to magnify His Name to the Glory of our Father in heaven, and to spread the Good News of Salvation by Grace, to Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God.
Part of that work is to correct misconceptions, and errant interpretation of Biblical precepts, to defend the Word of God and it's Authority, veracity, and accuracy to the edification of seekers of Truth.
It is in this capacity that I am drawn to post here with my friends.
The current participation has been civil and informative, but from a Christian point of view, it may not glorify Him to which every knee shall bow Jesus Christ.
For me this may not be the best thread to participate in as I respect everyone's rights to choose their own path, notwithstanding my personal beliefs that there is but one Path to Heaven, that being Jesus Christ.
This thread offers more access to non Christians to present their views, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but I have a feeling it will become more of a nitpicking at traditional Christian beliefs type of thread, than an exploration of Evil in general.
We shall see.
I do hope that this thread increases interest in everyone's Personal Spirituality, and a knowing of where They stand when the time comes to meet their Maker.
Will they know Him?, even more important will He know Them.
Another reservation I have and hope it may work opposite, is will this reduce traffic to our valuable Thread of Faith Support thread.
Again friends we shall see.
Ps. I am a Literal don't normally use that word I prefer serious Bible Student and I have the opinion that The Holy Spirit resides in Both Women and Men equally.
Both Men and Women commune directly with God, so I reject the notion that a Woman requires a Man to intercede between Her and God.
I think the Patriarchal Church resides in error from a Biblical perspective.
I may be a little radical here but feel I can back it up within Scripture.
I can't speak for NWV, but I don't feel your gender has any bearing on his position, Steph.
I may stand corrected but this is how I feel.
You of the ten finger typing skill, verse the poor old two fingered hunt and peck foggy.
My goodness Steph, I am not attacking anyone, where does that come from?
That last bit wasn't for you but for any man who is busy PMing about the "Jezebel spirit" in their midst rather than just expressing their views in love or providing some space in their world for Christians from a different background.
Seems there are some who are so tightly wound that I do not know where to begin.
The order of words in the title of this thread saddens...upsets greatly
We should all live in fear of the Lord..... REALLY! I thought we were talking love?
And just to be fair... I like the stained glass and the pomp, that is why attend Catholic mass.
And that is why we in the West have done so well.
Folk like Bugzy, Fix and Steph's dad, who have moved away from Christianity are destroying the glue which made us great.
I would love to hear from someone who can critically think.
Christianity is supposed to suspend judgment and spread love for all. I see "Christians" being more judgmental than any. In my opinion, this dogma and fear and anger, my way is the only way, supercilious bollocks is the exact opposite of spirituality, how can one lose ego with these beliefs?
Found this and was amazed at the lack of consensus.
One thing seemed certain, seems that man made it up.
I would be interested in talking about Satanism if anyone is interested. I confess to knowing nothing at all about it. Magik too. Lucifer, the light bringer - which seems like an odd term to give someone who is supposed to be dark? Any ideas?
Actually I do suspect I am wasting my time here. As I am quite sure fundamentalists will be all over me like a rash. Stakes and burnings' may be called for.
Hi Steph, I have been trying to find a Spirit led Church, for many many years, a church that puts Jesus Christ as the cornerstone, the Stone upon everything must be built.
From this Stone, the same as the one Moses smote in the wilderness, from which the waters of Life gushed forth to sustain Jacob's seed in the wilderness.
From this Stone, Jesus the same Rock that met the Samaritan woman at the well and told her if she knew who He was she would ask Him for a drink of Water, His water, that would forever quench her thirst that she would never need drink again.
Jesus is that Rock of Salvation, the Tree of Life, the source of the waters of Eternal Life.
Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth and the Life.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6 kjv
Jesus on the Cross, when thrust through with the Romans spear water and blood exited the wound in separate streams.
One blood, the other water.
Proving that Jesus is the Life of Men, the source of the Living waters that once flowed from the Tree of Life in the midst of the Garden of Eden.
I know of no churches in any of the main denominational systems, that use this Stone only, as the foundation for their existence, they all add to, or take away from this simple but crucial Truth.
Home churches, small churches do I believe exist, but I have yet to find a block and mortar one.
I believe we have a tiny church like that over at the Thread of Faith, where we have been studying the Pilgrim Church in our outdoor picnic cyber venue, please stop in for some cold fried chicken, potato salad, and a frosty lemonade, and some loving Fellowship.
In my view Clergy are unnecessary, tradition that is scriptural should be adhered to, but doctrines and traditions not in scripture have to be very seriously examined to determine whether they place God in His Exalted Place, and not Man in place of God.
In my view all heresy is accomplished simply by adding to, or taking away from the Holy Bibles Scriptures.
The main focus of a true servant of God is to do everything in His or Hers power to magnify and sanctify God and his Holy Name.
Love God with all your Heart, and Love your Neighbor the same.
Any church deviating from these basic principals is in error in my opinion, that said anyone in any church, can get salvation in their Prayer closet at home.
Simply by believing in and declaring Jesus Christ is the Son of God, confessing your belief in Jesus' death, resurrection, and Blood sacrifice, full atonement of all mankind's sin.
Confessing your sin and need for forgiveness, with a contrite and humble heart, with your mouth, and asking for God's Mercy Grace and Forgiveness upon themselves, and asking for the Holy Ghost to fill your Heart and to help guide their lives.
God will clean your heart, and cleanse your Soul, wash your robe to a new bright white.
JW's SDA's Protestants, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals, Mormons, athiests, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, anybody anywhere, all tongues, tribes, nations, will receive the Holy Ghost if an honest heart is humbled and a knee bowed.
You will have Christ within, you will never be alone again, what love is our Saviour!
I believe Jesus has the most inclusive church in the World.
All who believe on the Son of God shall be saved unto the Kingdom of God.
Praise the Lord.
Choose Life, Choose Jesus, with Love;
I thought this was the witchcraft forum now.
Perhaps someone can call me a wizard or something...not actually sure if that is a good thing or not?
Merlin seemed a splendid sort of fellow.
An impartial view is always welcome.
Let's see what you have.
Well thanks for your input foggy.
I have just checked my watch an remembered I needed to be somewhere else.
Bugzy I am no expert in witchcraft or satan but I can give you my opinion.
Lucifer at one time was a very beautiful (handsome) angel of some relative import in Heavenly events .
He was possibly in charge of worship, by that I mean leading worship of the Most High God, we know he had access to the alter of God, or at least was in the sanctuary, the Throne room of God.
He may have been an Archangel, Michael another angel is a very powerful warrior he is an archangel.
Lucifer was very beautiful and bright, able to transform into a bright light being.
Majik is very real and expressly forbidden by God for His children to Learn, as are Divining fortune telling, Conjuring, invoking familiar spirits, etc.
Interestingly Jesus was not a beautiful handsome man as depicted in most artist renderings, but plain looking possibly even somewhat homely.
These handsome artistic renderings would be better suited to lucifer.
Blue Letter Bible is a good resource to get information about Lucifer, I could post some descriptive verses if you like or you can just poke around on the internet.
Majik is really well described in the book of Enoch, there are a couple of versions one is suspected of being a fake but there is a real version, I am sorry off the top of my head I can,t tell you which is which.
Hope this Helps,
Satanism and Luciferienism are really the same only proponents deny it.
Luciferienisn Theosophy is the modern terminology Helena Blavastsky and Alice Bailey are your google terms.
Lucius Trust the publishing house, previously Lucifer Trust Publishing for the United Nations is the website to go to to see the new world religion philosophy in its current iteration. Foster Bailey teachings will give you a leg up on what the new one world religion will ultimately be.
spell check was not utilized in this post:0)
Thanks, you wrote a lot of beautiful stuff!
Just a comment (or two) about this:
The Catholic view is that the Apostle Peter founded the Catholic Church and has given them a set of teachings to uphold, which are carried down through the centuries through the lineage of priests that trace themselves back to Peter through "apostolic succession."
Since the Protestant Reformation, Protestants do not recognize Catholic Church teachings outside of the Bible nor the authority of the Catholic Church. Catholics, would on the other hand, tell you that there would be no Bible would it not be for the Catholic Church or its original "extra-Biblical" teachings that enabled them to put together the Bible in the first place! :-)
My concern with some Protestant interpretations of the Bible is that some of them are actually based on their own (newer) traditions and don't necessarily hold up to scrutiny. In my view, I think the evidence for "The Rapture" in the Bible is completely specious at best and is reaching. It is only a recent dogma from a particular sect in the mid-1800s if I am not mistaken.
We need to be careful about claiming to know the heart of God. Therefore, I feel that saying that my interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct and anyone who disagrees is (insert witchcraft reference here)...well, that's just as if not more dangerous than extra-Biblical teachings.
Jesus never said "Believe in the Bible according to one strict interpretation" - he said "Follow me."
I wish Christians could agree to disagree a bit more on this. I go to a great Bible-based church and have taken classes there, and they are smart and kind. They find a great balance between being scripturally "sound" and yet are not so rigid over interpretation as to be pounding their fist on the table about it in a heavy-handed, vitriolic, exclusive manner.
At the same time, I am going to check out a class on the book of Revelation at a local Catholic Church next month. I am curious as to what they are going to teach about it.
Original Sin can be viewed from the perspective of Eastern religions as the soul being separated from God and caught up in the delusion of Maya. Original Sin is in this view the identification with ego. Yogananda talked about Satan as originally having the job of creating the illusion of separation from God and then decided he wanted to be God, and he now tempts people to get wrapped in matter, which takes you away from God.
Which is not entirely far from the Adam and Eve story - the biting of the apple created the delusion of separation from God in that viewpoint.
*Note to critics: My explaining differing perspectives does not necessarily mean I fully endorse or believe these perspectives.
Well Stephanie, you are a fine Human Being with a loving heart and a sharp mind imho, from our online interactions.
You have raised several valid points some of which I have heard and or dealt with before, and some I will have to research a bit.
It is late but I will address each point eventually to the best of my ability, my aim is to be as factual as possible and also with a mind to respect your heritage within your Catholic back ground, and also your Episcopalian current Church.
I first have to find out what an Episcopalian is. :0)
As far as Clergy, goes my main focus is to get people on the right path, to Salvation.
Salvation is really very simple as my post above details.
Believe, confess, repent, ask for Forgiveness, receive the Holy Spirit within.
Not a lot of Clergy input or consultation required none in fact except for an optional water baptism at a local church in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. (Holy Spirit)
I received the Holy Spirit within sitting on my leather couch in a towel after a shower in 98 degree heat as the rain poured harder and harder outside, eventually I stood under the rain and pledged my heart and soul to the Father, Son And holy Ghost.
You do this and you will feel the Peace and Love and Fire of the Holy Spirit within. Breath taking experience, life changing really.
You have now been reborn in the Spiritual body, and the Holy Spirit will start a mighty work within your heart and mind,
your conscience may start to point out some of your less redeeming qualities, and your refining process has started.
You will have a real thirst for Bible study, the Holy Scriptures hold the Keys to knowledge about your new focus in Life, our Father in heaven, Abba Father, Jesus Christ is a Mirror image of El Shaddai, the Almighty.
You become so in love with Him you want to know everything there is to know about Him so that you might please Him and thereby make yourself very happy.
Start reading Matthew, John , 1 John will give you a good grasp of who Jesus was and is, also a good idea of who God the Father is.
Then read Genesis, Numbers ,Daniel, Revelation, Isaiah, Exodus, Hebrews Ephesians, Ruth etc. there are many reading plans but I like to plan and also flip open especially when I have been meditating on a tough verse or passage.
Read your favorite Bible, study it, if you have a question regarding a Passage or Verse, check context read a couple of verses above and below to seek clarity.
Try a different Bible version, I use the King James Version, 1769 because Strong's Concordance is Keyed to the original Hebrew Greek text in the underlying original manuscripts.
But I also read it because it is simply beautifully worded, gentle flowing prose in olde middle English.
It is not everyones cup of tea, there are some very good versions, the Duay Riehms is a catholic bible an Amplified Bible.
Maybe an old NASB.
Note, garage sales, flea markets, are good sources to build your Bible Library.
Blue Letter Bible, is a free Bible resource with interlinear translations, comparable versions, commentaries from scholars,
and famous Pastors.
Bible Gateway is another fine resource.
You tube Chuck Missler for bar none top expositional explorations of all the Bible.
His Revelation series is 24 1 hour videos very worthwhile.
Isaiah is 30 or 40 hours very good university credits available for all Chucks courses.
Finally pray always to God and ask Him to clarify that verse to you, There are study Bibles, of your favorite flavours which can also help.
Continued later Bed time.