Low or No 'Government'...?

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nixy
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Low or No 'Government'...?

Couple of interesting posts regarding no / low government. Shame the debate is not sustained here.

Surely the important aspect here is not the level of government, but whether tax payment should forced or by voluntary means? It is the system of forced / coerced tax payment that has led us here. - Without coercion the crook banks would have collapsed years ago and the bad guys would have been locked up. There would have been NO tax payers to bail out the crooks. People would be free from the liability of others.

Most people do not need to be governed. (How many would you murder tomorrow if government ceased tomorrow?) We just need some organizations, working in competition, to provide services we need including locking up the very few who do need to be governed. We pay for those services as we would any other good or service.

I'll put this here, if any would like to debate this further?

Edited by admin on 11/08/2014 - 05:01
TJeffson
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voluntary taxes

wouldn't work... very few people are going to volunteer to pay a tax.    And it's not just forced taxation... it's the use of force in everything that causes the problems.   Forcing you to no smoke pot, forcing you to not be a prostitute, forcing you to not carry a gun, forcing you to drive under a certain speed, forcibly stealing your wealth/purchasing power via debt creation/unbacked credit emission, forcing you to associate with people whether you like them or not, forcing you to give up your private property rights etc etc.    Government (of any size) is nothing more than a monopoly on the use of force.    No matter how small or limited you make a government, it still has that monopoly on force... you can't go start up your own police force ...they won't allow it.  

That's why I prefer Hoppe's ideas on the these things.    

Private law vs State law society -   https://mises.org/daily/5270

What Must Be Done - http://library.mises.org/books/Hans-Hermann%20Hoppe/What%20Must%20Be%20Done.pdf

Both are very good reads and not very long at all.   The 2nd really points out the problems with a Democracy or even a Constitutional Republic -  ie we've just changed from having 1 guy to hold responsible (a Monarch) to having no one to hold responsible (as Presidents come and go every 4 or 8 years).    Monarchs used to get beheaded etc because they could be held accountable... when has ANY US President ever been held accountable?  Never.   2 have been impeached and neither was removed from office.   And no President (or ex President) has ever served a single day in jail or has ever even been arrested or charged with a crime (beyond the 2 impeachments) that I know of.    Same goes with Congress... some get charged with crimes... almost none ever see a single day in jail.   Heck, most of them don't even lose their seat in Congress even after they've been charged.     Voting won't fix it either... people keep saying "we'll vote them out next time".... well just since the FED was created there have been at least 50 Congressional elections and 25 Presidential elections.... yet not once have we really changed anything (the closest we ever got was probably Coolidge in the 20s where he actually cut spending/kept spending low).   

Anyway, that's why I'll take Anarchism over any form of government.  At least then I'd be completely free to live my life the way I want to and never have to worry about the government coming after me or taking my stuff.  

Green Lantern
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This is the sign that I saw

This is the sign that I saw today in the Public LIbrary.  Yes, this one is open on Sunday's.  Can you imagine in an advanced Western Nation, with compulsory education up to 12th grade where I am sure they encountered at least one class over the 12 years on proper hiegene that adults have to be told to flush the toilet?   They need to add a sign, do not urine on the floor because the one urinal is always surrounded by a massive puddle.

How about this sign?

Despite these signs pasted in every city park, by day's end they are filth.  Today I saw somebody throw a banana peel under the bus bench besides a garbage only a few feet away.   Miscellaneous starbucks cups and other refuse decorated the same stop.    This is a total disregard to the public good.  Violates every code of human decency that I learned, and hopefully you've learned and it's down right disgusting.

I just read that 75% of Americans poled admitted to littering out of laziness and .....

  • Lazy
  • Don’t Care
  • Litter begets Litter
  • Ignorance
  • No sense of pride
  • Lack of Consequence for their actions

Where else do you think this laziness shows up in their personal lives?  The office? Lazy in their pursuit of truth, civics, knowledge etc?   How many places have you worked that you met somebody who doesn't want to do the dirty job hoping that somebody else will do it?    These small example violates the premise of the second article of mutual cooperation being an innate quality among humans.   Secondly, the article is filled with postulates that doesn't support itself through examples, or any quantative research.   Certainly, he could have found a volume on human psychology to support his point.

You could argue that despite the fact that the library has staff and security guard (a sort of goverment) the bathrooms become filth so might as go without any type of supervision because with supervision the result is the same.

The New York City Subway closed all of it's bathrooms probably in the 70's.  God knows what went on.  But there is still a bathroom in probably the most crowded station in the city-Times Square.  It is manned by a security guard, that allows you to go in and you have a time limit.  Go over and they come knocking.   After the door closes, they have a key and let the next person in.  For some odd reason, despite a filthy system and crowded conditions, it's clean.  Maybe the thought that you will be noticed for messing up the bathroom is a deterrent?

What is it about the American psyche as well as many other countries where adults have no disregard for the next person? What I can't account for is one small Japanese bookstore in the middle of Manhattan that has a little cafe that is spottless and two unsupervised bathrooms that are ALWAYS clean.  Not true for Barnes and NOble.   And despite some of the most densly populated cities in the world, the Japanese parks are BEAUTIFUL.  Japanese psyche they have an appreciation of beauty, cleanliness and nature.  And apparantly, they have less trash cans on the street for public use.

By mentioning the Japanese case,   I am handing the anarchist a chance to find out what exists in that culture (very rare) that the Japanese think about the perception of outsiders and visitors and would be ashamed to have trash lining their sidewalks.  Singapore probably another example but their cleanliness comes from the threat of force by force of government.  Not exactly an anarchists wet dream.    I need historical accounts, and better quantative data to demonstrate that anarchy would care for every facet of a society and tend to all needs from crime, public services and acquisition of resources. 

I've acknowledged that government has limitation always and will always be infiltrated by individuals who seek power and money.

TJeffson
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@GL

So your solution is to simply give up your freedom and liberty so we have clean toilets and no litter?    The Japanese are not applicable because they were a completely closed society for centuries and did not really allow foreigners in until this last half century or so.   If they let others in in droves, like the US has, for a couple hundred years they too would be in the same boat you just described.   

As for litter, in an Anarchist system, that's dealt with by property rights (as is pollution).   If I catch you littering on my land , I have whoever is the local law enforcement group arrest you and then a judge either forces you to clean it up or pay a fine or both (whatever the punishment would be).  No government is needed ... as competition among groups for law enforcement takes care of the police issue.    Under the current system, there are no private property rights left.... businesses have none because of the "Public Accommodations" nonsense in the Civil Rights Act (not to mention all the permits they need).  Home/land owners have none either because if you don't pay your property taxes, they take your land/home.  And you can't build squat on your own land without permits.   In many places you can't even start a fire (bigger than a camp fire) without a burning permit.  

You also just pointed out that even with litter laws on the books, people still litter.  So what good are your laws and police forces doing when they do not enforce the laws already on the books?   The issues you describe would not be any worse under Anarchy since no one obeys those laws now.   
 

Green Lantern
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So your solution is to simply

So your solution is to simply give up your freedom and liberty so we have clean toilets and no litter?   

No.  I didn't propose a solution.  I countered the argument in the article that states mutual cooperation is an innate quality in individuals which was his basis for his argument against government and in support of anarchy.   Again, show me some examples of this innate quality in humans and how it plays out in daily life. 

You also just pointed out that even with litter laws on the books, people still litter.

Yes, and under common law it would be an encroachment upon my property if you threw your garbage on my property or on public grounds.    Littering is not political law.   All common law falls under two principles I've written about before.  Maybury's two laws.   From Wikipedia,

Mr. Maybury bases his work on common law, namely

  • Do all you have agreed to do

  • Do not encroach on other persons or their property.

The first law is related to contract law. A contract is an agreement between two or more parties, in which they promise to perform certain actions for and recognize certain rights of the other parties. The second law is related to some criminal law and tort law. Violators of these types of laws have committed acts like theft or violence against other people. (When referencing these two laws, Maybury has at times requested they be known as "Maybury's Laws," and stated exactly as above.) He has also mentioned that there may be an other (or others) undiscovered law related to the subjects of law that the two he shows don't cover.

Yes, political law and much of religious law is used for control.  However, common law are guidelines and bare basic ones which is no more or less than the Golden Rule which is present in most civilized societies with some theme and variation.   Man has not risen to the state of awareness that he can follow the two laws, so for yonks man has had to be specific, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery.   I have not suggested a penalty for such minor violations.

My contention is that there are common or divine principles at work which results in common law. How this country was founded.   So even without laws, there are laws or principles at work.   The average human needs them iterated.

Under anarchy what happens to public spaces, beaches, and parks, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Central Park etc...? Does it get redistributed back to the public population and how?  Vacant land baby.  First come first serve?

How does a community who might not fit be into mutual cooperation pave roads, create infrastructure, plow snow?  If not everybody wants to contribute to the common good, it just doesn't happen?  It happens through the effort of only those who want to participate?  Who initiates the cause?

Restaurants that serve burgers from meat with mad cow disease?  Do we wait until the free market recognizes the problem ie alot of people get sick and the word gets out so they are driven out of business after an epidemic or does community police health standards too?  With no laws that you can't sell diseased meats and no inspection how do we ensure the health and safety of the public? 
 

Spartacus Rex
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@ TJ voluntary taxes

"wouldn't work... very few people are going to volunteer to pay a tax."

I do not know from where specifically you get your information from TJ, however it is obviously from a source that lacks any credibility.

FACT: "voluntary taxes" are paid and collected EVERYDAY

They are also known as "Excise Taxes" which are levied upon a variety things such as Fuel, Alcohol, Tobacco, etc., etc., ad nuaseum. They are simply already structured into the price paid before purchase, versus any "Sales Tax" which may or may not be applied at the Point of Sale.

Cheers, S. Rex

Spartacus Rex
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@ G.L. Thanks Again...

For that wonderful post you made last year containing Don Miguel Ruiz' 'The Four Agreements'

It is a shame that most simply let wisdom go in one ear/eye and out the other.

Thanks for the opportunity to post same again.

1. Be Impeccable with your Word

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally

3. Don’t Make Assumptions

4. Always Do Your Best

Cheers, S. Rex

TJeffson
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@ SR re voluntary taxes

Excise taxes are not voluntary, they're forced.    The only voluntary tax I can think of is the State Lottery system.      Perhaps you're the one with faulty sources.  

Spartacus Rex
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@ TJ

Again with the cognitive disconnect? If you don't want to pay the excise tax on an item, PRODUCE YOUR OWN!

Completely VOLUNTARY!

I am sure w/you taking your business elsewhere, the BILLS will nevertheless still managed to get paid without you, or any other cheapskate/free ride hobo for that matter.

Cheers, S. Rex

TJeffson
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@ GL

I'll try to answer what I can or have knowledge on... I'm not a leading expert on Anarchism.  

Last to first shall we?

Which Restaurant owner would ever want to sell tainted food?   Even with the FDA, people still get salmonella etc.  It's in the owners own best interest to ensure they don't make anyone sick or harm someone.   There are no guarantees in life (other than you're going to die someday).   Do you not go to restaurants now because of fear that you might get salmonella? (because it happens now, even with your laws and FDA).    Yes, there will be some places that try to get away with selling bad food... but they will quickly go out of business as people stop eating there.   All of the state (and federal) laws and regulations we have now do not stop this from happening.   Go look around in your local restaurants and see what you find hiding behind furniture or whatever, you may never go back there again.  

Paved roads -  Companies and businesses build them .. and charge a fee in their prices to pay for it.  They already do that ... in many new construction residential areas, the builder puts in the water/sewer system as well as the paved streets ... they just make sure it all meets city/county/state codes.    If a business has goods to sell, he or she will build the roads or railroad to get his/her goods to market.    You could even get together as a community and decide if you want to chip in to build the roads ... or even hire an outside construction company to build them for you.     Same goes with snow plowing, you hire it done or do it yourself.   You also hire a fire company to come put out fires and a policing firm to act as law enforcement.  

As for current govt parks or public beaches... the parks wouldn't belong to government anymore.. since there wouldn't be a government.  They could just remain free land that no one owns where people can come see nature.   Or whatever community is nearby could maintain them because it would bring in tourist dollars to that community.    Same with a beach ... local community discusses how they want to handle it and enough people would chip in to help keep it clean.   

You're taking a perspective of a twisted up state due to all the nanny-state programs where people no longer have to be responsible.   Under Anarchy, they have to be more responsible because no one is going to take care of them and they will have to face actual law enforcement if they violate people's rights.      There is no guarantee that it will all go smoothly or that there wouldn't be crime or problems... but given what we have today, it'd sure be a lot fewer problems to work thru than this mess.  

As for references.... there was someone here that posted a link to a story about Ancient Ireland and their roughly 2,000 years of Libertarian style government... I think it was Puck.    That would perhaps be a good source to see how life was for those people while that system lasted... it's not Anarchy but it's probably about the closest you'll find.     Anarchy hasn't been tried that I know of ... because people always want power and control.   So they form government where they can use the government to control everyone else.   

Nick Elway
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Lincoln Highway, different answers for local,state,national

Thanks GL and TJeff for the good discussion.

I thought I could throw in the Lincoln Highway as a private effort that successfully led to the first improved road across these United States.

from http://www.lhhc.org/highwayhist.asp

Quote:
A group of visionary businessmen from the automotive industry led by Henry B. Joy and Carl Fisher, formed the Lincoln Highway Association (LHA). The LHA successfully spearheaded the creation of a publicly-funded road that stretched from New York City, NY to San Francisco, CA. The road would be the first transcontinental highway. The LHA engaged in very little actual road building, but it did fire the public's imagination and soon their project was under way. When it was complete, it stretched 3,389 miles.

So it seems that even in 1912/13 the automotive industry lobbied to have the taxpayer fund something that would make their industry more profitable.  They had to lobby each state individually as there was a consensus that getting these United States as a block to pay for highways was not constitutional.

A brilliant friend of mine once told me he was a libertarian nationally and a socialist locally.  I disagreed strongly at the time, but not so much today.  It doesn't hurt so much to have a socialist/fascist HOA, city, county, or state as long as the citizens are free to vote with their feet and move to another governmental unit that is more to their liking.  The evil of a powerful national government is that there are significant barriers to finding and moving to a more free nation.  Even with today's situation there is a significant exodus from less free states to more free states.  

Perhaps locality is part of the definition of the social contract.  I agreed voluntarily to live in this neighborhood (with this HOA), this city, this county, this state.  I can move from one set to another with obstacles to movement increasing more or less as the number of government boundaries crossed increases. 

There is no voluntary social contract between me and these United States. 

I'd favor The Articles of Confederation or something  like the Swiss Canton system at the national level, then let the states compete to attract citizens.

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I am all for NO GOVERNMENT!

'nuff said. devil

I liked nixys post. yes

__________________

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the teacher will appear."

Green Lantern
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TJ,You make some good

TJ,

You make some good points.  Obviously we agree on two fundamental issues, the nature of government where powers are not checked, which is also a commentary on the nature of humans.   And I totally understand the idea that we have to move away from a system that inevitably deteriorates into a highly controlled matrix serving the interests of a few.  But right now anarchy remains a philosophical treatise because as you say, there is no historical context for it.

So how do we recreate a system where the inevitable doesn't happen? Obviously, in a forum we won't reach any consensus or have the ability to enact it.  But I enjoy these discussion as it allows those who are thinking these things out, such as myself, to really look at the human condition.

Some of your answers come out of the libertarian playbook which I resonate with and I guess if I were to align myself with a political party, I guess that's the team I would come closests to.   Some of the libertarian idea's, I remain on the fence.   Child labor?  I don't know doesn't seem like a good idea to me then and now to not have some kind of deterrent for employers that benefit from indentured servitude and slavery.  Of course, this still happens around the world especially the child sex trade.   You know as well as I do that there are adults walking around with a pecker in their pocket that have no sort of morals.

The paved road scenario for new construction, for small and new communities seems workable but I can't see how it would be workable in already highly populated area's with thousands of people living on one street.    There are more people living in one street in a major city than the entire population of most towns.   People rise early in the morning, go to work, and get home late and barely have the energy to cook toast before they go to sleep.  Then what's left, the elderly, the infirmed, children, the lazy, and pot smokers who after a bong hit look out the window and say wow, alot of snow, I'm going back to bed.  What's left might be those who can take a leadership role and figure out how to get the snow removed.  But with 10,000 people, it's gonna take a long time to figure that out.   On paper, an idea sounds good, but this one aspect of community life alone, I would need a better workable plan than anything that's been provided.

I went to the LIncoln Highway Association web page and read Nick's article but there is again lack of specifics.  How did they raise the money? Who were the benefactors?  etc.... And how one example would be implemented through the entire population and infrastructure.

Your reply to the food issue is again out of the libertarian cookbook.  Free market and private sector.  Which I am down with and I think the FDA needs to be dismantled.   Again in a small town with a few restaurants word of mouth gets around quick but in a city with 10 million people, and thousands and thousands of restaurants filled with vermon, people selling old food, or maybe bad food without any checks, I don't trust humans and restaurant owners to do the right thing simply because it's the right thing.     The layman has no education in basic food preparation and health standards.   So I can see that restaurants either belong to a private watch ground and voluntary submit to inspections and those who don't want to belong,  buyer beware. But how do we keep those who violate the trust of the public honest?  At least under common law there is a trial system and penalties to be payed for those that profit is their only motive.  If you have no experience with restuarants that would sell questionable food, meet me.  I'll take you on for a night on the town.

And public spaces would be filth when there is no ownership in our current society of 75% of people admitting to littering.

The transition to this style of no government would be painful and I just don't see it as a reality as this time in our evolution.  Again, I open to compelling arguments (some that you make) but have yet to be convinced.   Your idea of only local government is interesting.  But we have yet to begin to tackle the geopolitical landscape, participation in global trade etc...  Even if we remain totally neutral (which I advocate) we have to deal with enemies that would seek to encroach upon domestic soil in a world of weapons of mass destruction.   So even if we as a country go the way of no government, the only way we become safe in this world is if the rest of the world follows suit.    It just feels to utopian too me.

Green Lantern
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Thou Shall Not Forget

do not want to pretend to have the answer to the human condition.  But it’s fun to give it a go of how I would change society to ensure liberty and the pursuit of prosperity and happiness to the citizenry.  So what I write is fantasy in that I don’t think society is ready for it or willing to accept it.  

My first edict would be to amend the Constitution by adding a new amendment.  “Though Shall Not Forget”  It is the human condition to forget.  It is the human condition to go to Church on Sunday and learn all the principles that you espouse and go to the bar on Monday and gossip about the faults of your neighbor.   With this human foible in mind, I would pass the amendment “Thou Shall Not Forget.”  

Every town in the nation would have a library and museum dedicated to the unknown and forgotten history of the US.  Every student would know the history of the Banksters from Venice Italy through England to it’s roll in the destruction of the US republic.  All the wars fought for the benefit of the military/corporate complex.  Complete narratives, pictures, films to bring to life the history in a way that no man can forget.  Every man and woman will be intimately familiar with every aspect of the matrix.  At first it is a law as all amendments are but eventually the populace takes pride at reciting and knowing the fine details of our untold history.  Just as the Japanese take pride in their streets and parks and do it out of pride, citizens will take this knowledge as pride.    It is only in the forgetting of history that it repeats.  

Every public building will have the two laws written on it’s walls.  The Four Agreements works for me too.  Instead of a pledge to a flag, every student recites the two laws daily and daily reviews of how they or their classmates might have violated the two laws.  It also becomes a matter of pride that you follow these laws to a T. 

I do not guarantee that adding this amendment is full proof but maybe the Federation has an extended period of over a thousand years of peace and prosperity until a Darth Vader is born and looks to corrupt the system

Just a fantasy. 

nixy
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Cheers Semper veracem where

Cheerssmiley

Semper veracem

where truth>faith.

?

Ruffian
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Random thoughts

A few weeks back I was driven to visit the farm where my grandfather was born and my dad grew up. His last living relative a sister in law lives there. While I was ashamed for not visiting a long time ago and regulary. She said it didn't matter because I was there now.

Anyway, that led to her saying that things are so outta control because when businesses became 24/7 and Sunday's were no longer for families is when things began to break down.

I can personally tell you that government inspections are a joke on these massive commercial food producers. One visit to these places will tell you that kickbacks are the norm. I know the feeds they use and those contents might be highly responsible for obesity. The amount of steroids added to grains is astronomical. Fines levied are a joke in comparison to profit yield from larger animals. Not to mention the pure filth and sickness produced from these living conditions.

I would also present just the taste quality in local raised beef and the crap you buy in stores. You can taste the difference between grass fed cows and gmo grain fed cows. Keep in mind the profit margin is determined by the animal reaching maximum weight in minimal time and your eating the same crap too.

Anyone who grows am heirloom tomato vs grocery store produce knows this.

Who knows what they do overseas. They Nearly freeze most the fruit produce ...yuk. That's why peaches crunch like apples.

No wonder we eat chips and sweets. At least it has some taste. Twinkles have been around for 50 years, yet people weren't obsess then.

The death of the local farmers and local pgrown seasonal produce and the failure of regular family gathering where information is shared by business practice has brought us here.

Out here in the sticks we all use the same grain stores They know I'm buying higher protien grains because my animals are not for consumption and they require it because of the calories they use. We also know what grain farmers clean their oats so it's not polluted with dust that cause all sorts of problems that is passed on to you.

We also know that you keep horses upstream from cows. Because cows transmitt moon blindness to horses. Things like this. We also know not to graze cows in orchards or near veg fields because fresh manure produces e Coli that is in the fibers, you cant wash or cook it out.

The free market works just fine until government puts its greedy fingers in it. Just like they saved the saved the banks for who? Not us surely. Just like they pay farmers not to plant so they can control production and prices.

The Feds have one responsibility as far as I'm concerned and that is defense of the homeland. Maybe pharmacuticals to an extent.

Word of mouth is most reliable source. As far as propery upkeep goes. Give people a vested interest in their property and community and they will maintain it themselves. Peer pressure and community groups help those that need assistance. Out here we help the elderly and infirm do small repairs and lawn work.

Our problem is we all sit around expecting others to do it. Worse, the government to do it. If we let them, they will. We don't need foodstamps here. We have extra produce, not so good looking but flavorful for canning that can and is shared with the needy. Baskets are dropped off in the night so no one is embarrassed.

We built walls and fences everywhere but where they are needed..".. Like the effn border. Get to know your neighbors and families again.... We let this crap happen and we have to fix it.

nixy
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This is not the stuff people

This is not the stuff people would buy if they were free from government and it's coercion to pay taxes.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-07/ten-years-later-greek-olympic-wasteland-photos

Nana
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Things That Seem Forgotten

The people ARE self governing and the Feds Are a Republic Government, this is what the founding fathers gave us....

We are NOT a democracy.....

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