A place to discuss various OWS theories.
Occupy Wall Street - Grassroots or Well-Organized Conspiracy?
Have fun weaving your own web of speculation about what's wrong with this movement. From someone who's always preaching positivity here no less... Tin foil hat..? Why the labels and categorizations? You don't think that's divisive? Hypocrisy at it's finest. What use is this thread but to subvert and belittle the movement at large by virtue of it's very existence and evident implication of conspiracy by those at large on the street, by design or not?
Why can the other thread not harbor any "theories" or speculative biases in context?
Irrelevant IMO as the entire site is quickly becoming frankly.
I'd like to say thanks Stephanie for making this thread. I have gone back and forth on the whole OWS thing. At first I thought it was just something quick that happened for a few days on the news and then realized it was also going on for weeks and now is in my local downtown, and in neighboring towns. I thought WTF is this? I saw a video of a kid pretty much speaking the truth about the Federal Reserve and how it has usurped our wealth and I thought "wow, that college-age kid is really educated. This must be a libertarian-type uprising". But then I see other people just stating that they just want the rich to pay their fair share of taxes, that they want corporations dismantled, given to the people, etc. Okay, well that's clearly NOT libertarian so I don't know what it is. It's been expressed that the message is muddy, which it is to me too.
I too thought it was just a little strange how quickly this caught on. I mean, I know how hard it is to organize a big event and this thing just came out of nowhere. Obviously it was planned. Obviously someone has an agenda. I just don't know if it's right or wrong. Hearing that "Ron Paul signs are banned" makes me wonder if they are just trying to keep it from being political. Because in my opinion, if you really do want freedom from the Fed and the oppressive bankers, there is no other choice BUT Ron Paul. If they were all talking about Ron Paul at all of these protests around the world, it would be a good thing. Regardless of if he wins or not, Ron Paul's message is practically the only thing left of the pre-Fed America. It has to be spread.
I will say this:
1. It's probably a good thing that regular people are getting off their butts and deciding to do something.
2. I do feel nervous that this will be used to in some way justify something worse, such as Obama saying "I've heard your cries OWS! I'll sign an executive order to raise taxes! or some such nonsense.
3. I want to feel optimistic that people fight for what is right and that they really do understand who the real enemies are and that in order to get our liberties back, we need to restore the republic, stop these needless wars, and work on ourselves, not the rest of the world. Unfortunately, my experience has been that of the very, very passionate people I have spoken to, very few really understand what is going on. The TEA party is an exception, but even that has been manipulated and turned into something it's not so it's hard to tell.
4. My other fear is what Stephanie touched on above. That all of these protest will break out in major cities all over the country and that will give Obama (or someone with the authority) the reason to implement martial law and/or ban protests or public assembly. Of course it will be only temporary, as it clearly violates the Constitution, but "necessary" to handle this particular issue. You know, kind of how airport security was just "beefed up a bit" after 9/11? Yeah, right. TSA is here to stay.
Anyway, I'm rambling a bit here but I think that the OWS movement should be carefully scrutinized BECAUSE it's obviously been planned out. This was not "borne from the hearts of Americans around the country simultaneously". So, what is it exactly? I truly do hope that is does serve a positive purpose. I don't care what their backgrounds are, American citizens can assemble. I just hope they aren't manipulated into bringing forth something that further destroys us. It's only happened all throughout time...
There, now do I fit in the "tin foil hat" category??
The Oct 15 site does not appear to be an American movement of any kind, although they seem to claim credit , or are attempting to speak for it or associate themselves with it. .They are speaking in global terms and not specific American issues . They were not urging on the first American protests in Sept. and are late comers by Oct 15 .Which to me indicates they were not involved in the beginnings of the wall st occupation .
If Americans were to tie themselves with this group, and in another nation the group committed an act of violence .Americans would be viewed as the same type of group and a ""justified"" crackdown could commence.
I would be skeptical of any group proclaiming to speak for OWS that doesn't address the criminal banks and their puppet whores in Washington that are not American in origin
OWS has distinctive American issues, not global.
The left and right both have an interest in not being ripped off of their hard earned money.
The enemies of this movement are searching for a wedge to divide the people into smaller groups . So far they haven't been too successful , but given a little more time I'm sure they will find something to drive a wedge.
Ive read where the NAZI's (about ten left I think)and the Communists , and the Socialists and president Obama and Ron paul supporters all support OWS. They pretty much included everybody's enemy LOL.
I pretty sure quadaffy and the Mexican drug cartels and al Qaeda support it too
They're grasping at straws, or throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks
After all the coverage on MSM today and this weekend, it has to be. Imagine if Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth were ever given this much attention. Haha, oh boy...
"I've done my homework on OWS"
By this u mean u went to downtown and asked people what they are talking about?
"More importantly: There seems to be some folks who feel that any criticism of the movement should be silenced because it might "subvert" and "belittle" it. Would you rather that we not criticize or question it at all?"
that's the way it is with the extreme left, and it was certain to happen.
when you see this along with the absolute mind-numbed herd chant-repeating of whatever idiot dialogue is going on at the time - run the other way.
at this point it is no longer about citizens addressing and showing displeasure with the practices of the banks or the fed and pushing for change within the capitalist system. with those now steering this movement, it's about overthrowing capitalism.
somehow i think i've seen some black and white clips much like what's going on now on certain history channel documentaries.
I find it interesting that sentiment on TF is dismissive of the #occupywallstreet movement where zerohedge and other sites have more comments on this issue. I was amazed that commentators on slashdot were nearly positive on how everything is going to shit and this movement is a reaction to it.
I also find it funny when one of the main point of this website is "The end of the Great Keynesian Experiment is upon us" and we are seeing this being materlised in front of our eyes in terms of mass arrests/protests and people are dismissing it as conspiracy theory.
Protest doesn't matter if its coming from left or right just that its starting to happend which is one of the first stages of the downfall. Also the reactions to the protest really show how things are screwed up especially from TPTB. For me the biggest gain from the movement is that people are starting to believe that there TPTB is real and they control both parties and that the oligarchy is not benovalent.
The majority of protester don't understand what is happening around them only that something in their gut telling them that something is wrong with society. A significant number is also their for the experience but its up to us to to shine light to were things are wrong and a path to a sustainable future.
I will have my hedge in silver but for me, I really see this movement as the last hope we have of not having to use that hedge.
I believe the concern is legitimate. Everyone should question it. It would be foolish not to.
or you could end up working against your own interests.
However , a socialist or communist plot it is not. That is a red herring . Communism is practically dead, and no one here would support it except a few hippies. Socialism , Well shit , we are almost socialists the way it stands now. Hardly a reason to propose a socialist plot. If the banking cartel were attempting to discredit the movement what would be their first target of propaganda?Obviously, Communism, mine too. Its nothing to set up some web sites to back up the notion, hire some pros ,some writers, and wallah! Well since wall st is the major supporter of communist labor they began to call them anti capitalists instead , which exempts them, and doesn't identify the protestors except in terms of enemy of free markets . which, once looked at, is ridiculous on its face.
The core issue is finance and corruption , neither socialism nor communism can promise freedom from it.I don't see either being supported by the general population because they offer nothing new.
My main concern is the merging of global banks . Supposing we do away with the fed , does that invite us into a global banking cartel? Do we end up like Ireland or Greece?debt slaves, owing their ass to the IMF? Does it play into the banks hands? I dunno .
or do we do nothing and stand by while the fed and wall st continue to rape this country ?
I know the central bank was founded here in 1913, and was not powerful enough prior to WW2 to attempt a global coop . There was the rise of communism and Hitler who also opposed the central bank and had absolute contempt for the European banking cartels.
After WW2 Communism was strong and spreading . It was a direct threat to the bankers, and it kept them in check . It was not until 1991 and the fall of communism that opened the door for them to continue with their aspirations of a global banking system. I would assume that restructuring would be needed and a collapse of the old system to make way for the the new. But the US was still wealthy, so government had to squander steal, print ,borrow, for almost 20 years to bankrupt us. That is why I do believe a global banking collapse is imminent. It could not be just one country or one continent, it had to be global in scale. international ties must be forged before hand . interdependency was a must .
So there is my hypothesis in a nutshell. So why do I back the movement? One, Im tired of being ass raped by wall st and Washington. And two,I believe that we still might be able to pull our country back together. and three , I could also be wrong.
there is a core group at ows which are all students and stay overnight.
however, on a daily basis there is a much larger number of people showing up in support. i don't mean poor people either. i mean 1% people who have money and run businesses. i say these things because i know alot of people who have gone down there in support. those of us who have 60-80+ hr a week jobs do not have the time to go spend the night and could probably articulate it better than the kids down there. however, the IDEA that wall street is not functioning correctly needs to be out there. this will not be done with words and logic as these methods have always been elusive to the masses. it has to be spread via drum circle. once people start to hear, things may change.
imo, u r pointing at rotten trees and missing the forest.
However , a socialist or communist plot it is not. That is a red herring . Communism is practically dead, and no one here would support it except a few hippies. Socialism , Well shit , we are almost socialists the way it stands now. Hardly a reason to propose a socialist plot. If the banking cartel were attempting to discredit the movement what would be their first target of propaganda?Obviously, Communism, mine too. Its nothing to set up some web sites to back up the notion, hire some pros ,some writers, and wallah!
You make some very good points...though I'd disagree that Communism is dead - believe it or not, I have a friend who is a Communist! And Socialism is surely alive and well - look at Europe - and you're right, we see it here too.
Anyone who has ever looked at Cuba, N Korea, China, and the former Soviet Union understands that these systems have failed on a massive level. Yes,your going to have a few idealistic supporters but you couldn't fill a Denny's restaurant with all of them combined . If it were not for the US,supporting China with American jobs , they might have threw in the towel also.
What I figure - and what people who dismiss the concerns over the "Marxists" perhaps don't see - is that if I were a powerful banking cartel, and I wanted to wrest even more power from the people, wouldn't I perhaps use some of the energy of certain socialist groups to my advantage?
In essence, some of the organizers themselves may be sincere leftists...but the reason the protests are "allowed" and even "encouraged" (by the media, for example) is because it serves the purposes of the cartel.
I see the media as misrepresenting the whole thing , if not ignoring them . FOX stopped calling them communists and are now calling them anti capitalists , if thats not propaganda, I dont know what is.
If you really think the banking cartel is that powerful, do you honestly think that a bunch of kids squatting in a park is a real threat to them?
The truth is always a threat to lies.
Thus the speculation in that godlikeproductions thread that I shared above...that this worldwide group is being used to institute worldwide "socialism" which is really a front for entrenching the global banking cartel. OK, now I'm in Alex Jones territory, but actually, I've been surprised that Alex himself seems a little naive on this subject, as he's focusing most of his energy on the "co-opting" of the movement by MoveOn.
Just some things to think about.
I'd be more than happy if an overwhelming number of libertarians/Ron Paul Republicans/Alex Jones "Freedom Fighters" and whatnot took over these protests from the socialist/far-left element and made it into something different. So maybe it's not bad that some folks are getting involved...maybe they can direct the energy into better things.
There are Ron Paul supporters there , there are veterans there, there are small business owners there, there are libertarians there . There are unemployed collage grads there , there are lawyers there. there are rock stars and movie stars there, there are left wing people there , and of course you have your fruit basket, bongo drum playing , pot smoking people there. Some of their views are in obvious conflict, but they are not in conflict about the criminals on wall st and DC. That, they do agree on . Stop looking at only a part of the picture . Thats like someone looking at a toe in Michael Angelo painting and and saying they dont feel he was very good artist . The totality of whole picture must be viewed .