Expanded Theological Discussion for Spiritual Seekers, Believers, and Everyone Else

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Mon, Oct 17, 2011 - 10:19am cpnscarlet
yangster
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cpn I am a practitioner of

cpn I am a practitioner of vipassana meditation, I am open minded towards all beliefs, but not all interpretations of them and see them all as maps that point towards the truth, some get closer than others. I strongly support the use of the Kalama Sutta as a guide for investigating any spiritual tradition and am thus not a "believer" in any religion but do think that they should be used as tools for unearthing the truth. I am a believer in the importance of enlightenment, I don't trust that "heaven" is a place that we can go to when we die if we have not already found it here on earth, it is possible to know heaven here on earth.

When Christian teachings are viewed through the lense of meditative practice their literal meanings change and a more esoteric understanding arises. I know many Christians who practice vipassana who swear that it brings them closer to the teachings in the Bible.

I am fascinated by the fact that people can hear/read a story that has been passed down over the centuries and BELIEVE it is the word of God, (whatever God is ) to me it just doesn't compute and I see it as dangerous (will be happy to explain why later but not now) I do want to genuinely hear somebody give me a reason that we can trust that it can be true, because I just don't get it, but I do have deep experiences in meditation that suggest to me that what we read in many spiritual texts should be interpreted in the way of Christian Mystics would or Sufi Muslims and more contempory teachers such as Eckhart Tolle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deq_1lg9Dlo

I also feel that the spiral dynamics model explains many of the various interpretations of the religions and the reasons that two people can both look at the same religion and come up with extremely different views is because of where they are positioned in the evolution of consciousness.

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Sat, Oct 22, 2011 - 7:58am
yangster
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Dawkins Maher Mormons
Tue, Nov 1, 2011 - 10:57pm
Lizzyerd
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My own question

Hello, my name is Lizz. I found this by simply typing 'theological discussions' into Google, so hopefully this is what I am looking for. (Somewhere where I can ask my questions and *most* people won't look at me like 'seriously, you're asking THAT?')

This is the back story to my question. I am 26 and only just recently began to go to church every Sunday, the church I go to is technically a Baptist church, but most of the service is singing to Christian alternative/rock songs. (I was introduced to the church by a friend of mine that we work at the same place...) Before this I was in the mindset that it was actually better in many, many, many ways to NOT be stuck in a building having some person yelling and telling *you* that everything you have done in your life is wrong, and thus you are going to Hell for it.
I have my own problems with religion and even with the 'devoutly' religious, quotes because in my experiences the people that trully are 'Christians' don't go around telling everyone they are, but the ones who really aren't are the ones that are always saying: "I'm a God fearing woman....'---blah blah blah.
Anyways.... To help you guys understand my mind set the other day the pastor at the church made a comment about 'I'm not into denominations...' my first thought to this: "then why are you at a 'Baptist' church?'. ((I'm starting to feel like a 2 year old when someone says something about it all, my first thought is: why?))

((I promise I am getting to my question)) and here it is... the other day I was wondering... what, exactly, makes Christianity 'true'? Is it because of the Bible? A book that was written by man, with so many translations (and before it was written it was spoken and if you have EVER played the game 'telephone' as a child you know how mixed up things can get from one person the next). Is it because of Jesus? I read a quote somewhere that said He was either: A prophet, a mad man, or a genius (i don't think that was the direct quote but you get it I am sure). Is it because more than half of the world believes in it? If that's true, the belief one, what about older religions? Like Norse, Celt, Greek? Why weren't they correct? Why is it we read the stories about their gods in the Mythology section in bookstores? And what makes us think that one day, some day in the future (far, far into I think) we won't read about Christianity there?

I am not in any way condemning. I was baptized myself as Methodist when I was a baby, I go now to a Baptist church, I have also been to non-dominitional (sp?) , and likewise to Jewish services (couldn't understand half of what was said but I absolutely loved it) while in basic training as well as a Wiccan service (please do not confuse the Wiccan service as anything to do with Devils... Wiccan was originated by Celtic beliefs and thus have a great respect for nature. In fact I have an interesting thing that happened while there: I was in basic training for the military (actually in med hold waiting to see if I were to go back to training or ship out and go back home --this was 6 years ago btw -- anyways, I had injured myself (don't ask) and as some others was on a waiver that I didn't have to stand to wait. We were waiting to go into the chow hall. Anyways, when I sat down I found this dried out leaf in the shape of a heart. Perfectly shaped. I sent it back to my mom (again, I was 19 at the time -- I turned 20 while in basic). A friend in med hold asked me to go with her to the Wiccan service, being my own curious self, I agreed and we both went. In the service they were trying to communicate to the spirit of nature.. in this sense.. they were rocks. --I know, but is that really all the more different from anything else? -- well, before we got to the communicating part we had to line up and choose are rock. We lined up and closing our eyes reached into a huge bucket, probably about the size that pool cleaner comes in, and pick a rock. My turn came up, closed my eyes, reached in, grabbed the very first rock my fingers touched.
When I got back to my place in the circle, I looked at my rock. A bit smaller than my fist, could easily wrap all fingers around it, a brownish-grey color, except for a darker section of the rock, that was in the exact shape of a heart.
Cool, huh?)

Alright, I'm back on track now.. thanks for letting me ask the question... and letting me go on a tangent for that matter, as well.

And happy belated Halloween

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 - 12:18am
After the Storm
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@ Lizzyerd

The bottom line when searching religion is really one simple question...Is the Resurrection of Jesus literally true? If it is, it validates every other claim made by Jesus during his life. If it isn't true then christians, including myself, are wasting our time.

It doesn't matter whether the bible is all literal, or whether some words were not copied or translated perfectly, or whether they got all the books that should be in the Bible. The early church didn't even have the "bible". It matters whether Jesus really is who he said he was and the proof or validation of that is the resurrection. Churches today tend to focus on the crucifixion. Not so with the early church leaders. They focused on the resurrection. No other religion makes a claim anywhere close to it. If it is not true then all religions are basically the same. All are the efforts of mere men trying to attain righteousness by there own works. Even reincarnation is another form of attaining a "level" of goodness on your own. Just takes a little longer :^). But if the resurrection is true....well then that is a different story. That is THE issue that has to be resolved in a person's heart and mind. Many things in christianity have to be taken by faith, the virgin birth for instance. The resurrection, however, has circumstancial evidences around it. Josephus actually talks of it in his writings. How do you explain why a small group of men, who were depressed, discouraged and in despair because they had just watched there leader,who was supposed to change the world, die a horrible death, suddenly become so confident and filled with zeal that they changed the world. Why? What happened?

The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is the answer to your question. If He really did rise from the dead christianity is true. If He didn't it isn't. God Bless.

This Too Shall Pass
Wed, Nov 2, 2011 - 1:35pm
Lizzyerd
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@ Storm

Thank you for your answer.

But, my question isn't exactly about the bible itself. I was more wondering about GOD himself... actually after I posted my own question I went back to read some more of the posts on here, (which are mostly well thought out, and it's so nice to see that people who disagree with each other can actually live in harmony, wish the rest of the world could understand that).

Anyways, in my own view, whether it is right or not, I keep thinking that there has GOT to be *SOMETHING* up there watching us, however, I don't think He (for lack of a pronoun to give that being, let's use 'he'), is all powerful. Maybe He was at at one point, but after the flood and after his mistake of promising to Noah that he would never do something to that grand scale again, well, now he's stuck with all those 'bad' people again, with nothing to do about it.

Writing that, made me think something, maybe THAT is why there is so much evil and so much terrible-ness in the world now. God promised to not make another flood to wipe out humanity, thus he had to figure a different way to weed out the bad.

Anyways, I've had my own interesting experiences, including the one with the leaf and rock I posted above. And to think that there is NOTHING up there, well, that's just incredibly depressing.
A friend of mine told me this when I was telling her that to me this 'going-to-church-reading-the-bible' thing all of a sudden was strange to me, she had asked if it made a difference to my own life. I told her 'yes' that before I had felt that something was missing (before this, I will say that I celebrated Easter and Christmas, if someone sneezes I said 'Bless You', etc.... I wouldn't call me or my family orthodox to any extent but at least it was what WE where). But my friend tells me this: "If you found something that is GOOD and it makes you feel fulfilled, and you don't do it well then you are a fool " (I promise she IS my friend ;-).

And on another side note, before I read the bible at any extreme, I read the Koran, not as a 'non-fiction' but as something to more over understand.... that interested me far, far more than the actually 'word of God'.

Fri, Nov 4, 2011 - 10:10am
After the Storm
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@ Lizzyerd

Hmm. I thought I did answer your question both specifically and in general about God. You asked "((I promise I am getting to my question)) and here it is... the other day I was wondering... what, exactly, makes Christianity 'true'? Is it because of the Bible?"

And I said " No it isn't the bible, it is the fact that Jesus literally rose from the dead that makes christianity true. The resurrection validates every claim Jesus made about himself" If the resurrection is true, christianity is true. That is a direct answer to your question. It was proclaimed and preached for hundreds of years before we had a 'bible'. The resurrection also answers your deeper question about God.

When I say the resurrection validated the claim Jesus made about himself, what exactly was that claim. HE claimed to be GOD. He was either a nutjob or He was who He said He was. How do we know? The resurrection. Mortals don't rise from the dead. If He truly rose from the dead your search for God is over. You found HIM. He came for that very purpose, to reveal God to us. People who think he was just a teacher or prophet haven't read what He actually said.

Ask yourself, Is God some nebulous mystical entity in the sky that intellectuals theorize about, as they did in ancient Greece?...or Is God a personal God who wants to know us and be known by us? If it is the latter it is no surprise he would put on flesh and dwell among us to reveal Himself to us. If He was who He said He was, then He showed us God. How do we know whether he really was who He said He was.......THE RESURRECTION. If the resurrection is true not only is christianity true .....YOU HAVE JUST FOUND GOD and you know exactly what God is like because He showed us. If it isn't true then we all need to keep searching.

So what do you believe about the resurrection? Settling that issue is step 1 in the search for truth about God. No other religion in history or person in History made a claim close to this. Claiming to be God and then rising from the dead to prove it. You are an honest seeker and should not just 'take my word for it'. You can google the resurrection and read all the info. There will be people arguing for it and against it. Opponents of christianity KNOW this is the central issue as well and try to disprove it because they know if it is true so is christianity. Here is one persons journey. His name is Simon Greenleaf, a former professor of Law at Harvard.

Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated:

"it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).
Best to you Lizz..............
This Too Shall Pass
Fri, Nov 4, 2011 - 2:21pm
Lizzyerd
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Technically I had about three

Technically I had about three or four questions to my question:

"".................(1)Is it because of the Bible? ............................... (2) Is it because of Jesus? ................. (3) Is it because more than half of the world believes in it? (3.1)If that's true, the belief one, what about older religions? Like Norse, Celt, Greek? (3.2) Why weren't they correct?""

^ See? ^

But, to answer your question to me (even if it was rhetorical) honestly, at this point in my life I really don't know what I think about the resurrection. Had you asked me when I was little I was would have said what most kids do if they had been brought up at all within the realms of Christianity.

It used to bother me when people would say that Jesus was God, in my mind, and way of thinking (keep in mind that only in the last year have I read more than Genesis in the Bible) was the God was one 'person' and Jesus another. I do celebrate, as I believe I said before, Christmas as the birth of Jesus, as do I celebrate Easter as the resurrection.... however, I guess since not reading the Bible, nor really going to church I didn't exactly understand it all. Now that I know *more* it seems that my mind wants to ask: 'but....'---'why...?' or 'how....?'

Fri, Nov 4, 2011 - 11:25pm
After the Storm
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@ Lizz

I think it is wonderful, and I mean WONDERFUL you are asking 'why' and 'how' and every other question. I am the same way. Every person HAS to be persuaded in there own mind for themselves about things. Only way to do that is ask and read and search. I COMMEND what you are doing in searching...even if you come to a different conclusion than I did. People HAVE to go through these searches to prove to themselves. Could take time also. No hurry.

The question was not rhetorical. I wanted to know what you actually thought about the resurrection. Had you thought about what it meant? The implications of it? Was it just a 'story' from your youth or a 'book'?

My direct answer would be the same to all of your questions. Christianity isn't true because of the bible. It isn't true because it is 'old'. It isn't true because half the world believes it. It isn't even true because there was a person named Jesus who 'lived' and taught great things. It is ONLY true if He rose from the dead. I have purposely not quoted from the bible. But here is a short quote from I Corinthians 15:17 to show that this is what christians have always understood, "....and if Christ has not been raised from the dead, your faith is worthless."

Your bottom line question I think is, what is true? All this different stuff out there about God and how do I know what is right? You probably heard more about christianity than any other religion so you are starting with that one. I think that is exactly what someone in any culture would do at some point. You are starting at the common sense starting point and the way to prove christianity true or false is by proving the resurrection true or false. That is why Simon Greenleaf, the Harvard professor tried to do it. You might read his book(above) or others on the resurrection. 'The Resurrection Factor' by Josh McDowell, maybe. Josh also a former atheist who set out to disprove the resurrection and thus christianity, and in the end converted to Christ upon viewing the evidence. This why I want you to research and study it...from all angles. Truth isn't afraid of investigation, only lies are. At some point it will become more than a story or tradition that is the basis for an Easter ritual. It will be a revelation that Jesus is who He claimed.

I also understand the thought that Jesus being God is bothersome. But honestly Lizz, that is the whole point. If you conclude He wasn't God then you will believe in another religion. No other religion believes He was God incarnate. This is the point of disagreement with Jehova Witnesses, Judaism etc.

In the end this is something GOD has to reveal as you seek Him. Ask God to reveal these things in a way that makes sense to you. He is listening. Add prayer to your study. In the end this is a spiritual thing not an intellectual thing. There will be a 'revelation' of these things(or not). Jesus asked people sometimes who they thought He was. Some would say a prophet and some would say a teacher but occasionally someone would say...'you are the Christ'. Jesus would say 'flesh and blood'(humans) haven't revealed this to you but the Father in heaven has.' At some point God will be the one to give you the revelation of these things as you seek. Or not. But you are asking the right questions. I respect that greatly, as I said, even if you come to a different conclusion.

This Too Shall Pass
Sun, Nov 6, 2011 - 7:33pm
Maryann
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Good questions....

Hi Lizz, I have been following your conversation with After the Storm. I just wanted to chime in and say that I think you are asking great questions, and After the Storm has given you some really good things to think/pray about. I would also recommend Josh McDowell's books. His classic (for me, anyway) is Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

Please let us know how the reading/research goes and if you have more questions. For me, when I ask God to know Him, He gives me opportunity some how, some way. Maybe that is one prayer that is always answered. Then it is up to us what we do with Him-love and accept, or reject.

Sun, Feb 19, 2012 - 9:10pm
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No, I know

This is in response to this comment: https://www.tfmetalsreport.com/comment/546713#comment-546713

Red Pill wrote:

sorry Stephanie, but you don't know. all that you think you know is nothing but series of biochemical reactions inside your head, and your experiences "prove" nothing.

everybody is entitled to their own beliefs, but do not confuse believing with knowing they are different things.

You completely ignored what I said about "knowing." There is absolutely NO OTHER RATIONAL EXPLANATION for having predictive/telepathic experiences other than some sort of consciousness that transcends our current space/time continuum. What I have experienced was not just "inside my head." It couldn't have been, because what I experienced gave me worldly knowledge that I had no other way of knowing.

Please explain to me how I could have a detailed dream about a ferry crashing into a pier (something that never happens with any regularity) and then the event occurred a few days later in the real world. Or why I had recurring nightmares about tsunamis a week before the 2004 tsunami. Or a horrible feeling prior to last year's tsunami. Or heck, the Web Bots and how they predict things through people's language online!

If you can come up with some sort of plausible, scientific explanation for ESP and psychic phenomena that doesn't involve consciousness beyond the brain, then maybe you have a point there.

I'm sorry that you haven't experienced such things. Your world is unfortunately much smaller than mine.

Here is the #1 definition of "know" in the dictionary:

to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.

My experiences have given me absolute clarity and certainty that there is a greater reality than this one. This "knowing" and certainty is quite different from any "belief" I might have about what that reality might be. I "believe" there is a heaven and some sort of hell, and I also "believe" in reincarnation. I do not "know" for certain that heaven, hell, or reincarnation is what happens after you die, however. I do know for certain, however, that we are more than our bodies and there is some sort of "God" or transcendent consciousness.

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to challenge people when they share their experiences. Instead of being curious and open-minded, you shut people down and tell them that what they've experienced is "all in their head." What is your goal? To get me to see the folly of my ways? I'll admit that I have a goal of putting some doubt in your mind about there being "nothing," but it's not even for you so much as the lurker who might need to hear my response.

And yet, your username indicates going beyond the "Matrix" to the greater reality. You do realize that the message of the Matrix movies was actually about spirituality? Not virtual reality or computers? That when Neo saw the real "Matrix" at the end, he saw past the physical world into the spiritual realm beyond? (Maybe you need to watch it again.)

I'm wondering if, in part, your challenge of others is what's going on inside yourself - in other words, you challenge people because this is the dialogue going on in your own mind that makes you a "militant" agnostic. What made you become a militant agnostic? Was it the feeling that God wasn't present in your life?

Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 2:32am Stephanie C
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stephanie wrote:This is in

stephanie wrote:

This is in response to this comment: https://www.tfmetalsreport.com/comment/546713#comment-546713

Red Pill wrote:

sorry Stephanie, but you don't know. all that you think you know is nothing but series of biochemical reactions inside your head, and your experiences "prove" nothing.

everybody is entitled to their own beliefs, but do not confuse believing with knowing they are different things.

You completely ignored what I said about "knowing." There is absolutely NO OTHER RATIONAL EXPLANATION for having predictive/telepathic experiences other than some sort of consciousness that transcends our current space/time continuum. What I have experienced was not just "inside my head." It couldn't have been, because what I experienced gave me worldly knowledge that I had no other way of knowing.

Please explain to me how I could have a detailed dream about a ferry crashing into a pier (something that never happens with any regularity) and then the event occurred a few days later in the real world. Or why I had recurring nightmares about tsunamis a week before the 2004 tsunami. Or a horrible feeling prior to last year's tsunami. Or heck, the Web Bots and how they predict things through people's language online!

I didn't ignore it, it's all part of your experiences and as such we have only your word for it, and no proof of any sort of anything. Even assuming that it all happened exactly as you say it "proves" nothing except you had some wierd dreams and funny turns.

attempting to draw conclusions about the meaning of life / afterlife from dreams, delusions or hallucinations is not "A RATIONAL EXPLANATION"

without meaning to imply anything bad, please explain to me the difference between the kind of things you are saying and the kind of things said by many people imprisoned in mental institutions, who are all equally as sure they "know" and indeed their experiences are real to them, we all "just don't get it"?

the point I'm getting at, is that one persons thoughts, experiences or memories, are just that, and if that person got a bullet through their motherboard and the thought program stops running, then all that you hold as "you" is gone, like an old laptop shutting down for the last time, you can kiss goodbye to that cute Windows 95 screensaver you "knew" because it's gone.

stephanie wrote:

If you can come up with some sort of plausible, scientific explanation for ESP and psychic phenomena that doesn't involve consciousness beyond the brain, then maybe you have a point there.

and if you can prove anything beyond 50/50 guessing and blaggery with any of this then you can claim the $1,000,000 million prize (that has been available to anybody who can do so for many years, and yet is still unclaimed)

https://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.

stephanie wrote:
I'm sorry that you haven't experienced such things. Your world is unfortunately much smaller than mine.

and yet in the real world I suspect vastly larger and more diverse.

stephanie wrote:

Here is the #1 definition of "know" in the dictionary:

to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

A fact

(derived from the Latin Factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be shown to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with fact or reality.[
stephanie wrote:
My experiences have given me absolute clarity and certainty that there is a greater reality than this one. This "knowing" and certainty is quite different from any "belief" I might have about what that reality might be. I "believe" there is a heaven and some sort of hell, and I also "believe" in reincarnation. I do not "know" for certain that heaven, hell, or reincarnation is what happens after you die, however. I do know for certain, however, that we are more than our bodies and there is some sort of "God" or transcendent consciousness.

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to challenge people when they share their experiences. Instead of being curious and open-minded, you shut people down and tell them that what they've experienced is "all in their head." What is your goal? To get me to see the folly of my ways? I'll admit that I have a goal of putting some doubt in your mind about there being "nothing," but it's not even for you so much as the lurker who might need to hear my response.

​would you not feel the need to challenge somebody you saw stating as fact ie they knew without doubt (because of their special powers) that the Flying Spagetti Monster was the one true god?

If you were using the rights words, as in "you believe" - I would have kept quiet, however when i see people stating unproven belief as fact, I can either be dishonest to myself and stay quiet, or I can do the right thing and speak up.

I believe that the spaghetti monster story s every bit as credible as the various god stories, others choose to believe differently, this is all of our rights, but the one unassailable fact, is that NONE of us know

stephanie wrote:
And yet, your username indicates going beyond the "Matrix" to the greater reality. You do realize that the message of the Matrix movies was actually about spirituality? Not virtual reality or computers? That when Neo saw the real "Matrix" at the end, he saw past the physical world into the spiritual realm beyond? (Maybe you need to watch it again.)

or maybe you do? people have the habit of seeing what they want to see in films, but IMO it (the first one) has zero to do with spirituality or gods.

https://red-pill.org/the-matrix/meaning-philosophy/

the second & third films were rubbish, watched once and discarded, Im not qualified to comment on what they may have been about.

stephanie wrote:
I'm wondering if, in part, your challenge of others is what's going on inside yourself - in other words, you challenge people because this is the dialogue going on in your own mind that makes you a "militant" agnostic. What made you become a militant agnostic? Was it the feeling that God wasn't present in your life?

to all intents and purposes I am an atheist, as are we all about 99.9% of the gods throughout human history, modern atheists just go one god further than everybody else.

but because I, like you or anybody else have no proof (and therefore do not know) the only ethically honest position is agnostic, because people have beliefs, but again, none of us know

know/nō/

Verb:
  1. Be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.
  2. Have knowledge or information concerning.
I can only show you the door.. Take the Red Pill #Occupy Money
Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 2:51am Red Pill
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"knowing" vs. "facts"

Red Pill wrote:

I didn't ignore it, it's all part of your experiences and as such we have only your word for it, and no proof of any sort.

That's right. It's proof to me, but not to you, because you did not have the experience. But I have also had friends/family who can verify things (i.e., my family who I was staying with when I had the tsunami nightmares, which I reported to them). Just because you weren't around doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Red Pill wrote:

without meaning to imply anything bad, please explain to me the difference between the kind of things you are saying and the kind of things said by many people imprisoned in mental institutions, who are all equally as sure they "know" and indeed their experiences are real to them, "WE all just don't get it"?

Actually, I'm sure a good number of people hearing voices are really hearing voices, but our science doesn't know how to deal with them and so gives them pills to shut down the overly active and non-discriminating psychic ability. But going back to my previous comment, I don't live in a vacuum, friends and family are aware that I've had psychic hits. Never mind that they've had some of these experiences as well. Unless you think I'm imagining my friends and family too.

Red Pill wrote:

and if you can prove anything beyond 50/50 guessing and blaggery with any of this then you can claim the $1,000,000 million prize (that has been available to anybody who can do so for many years, and yet is still unclaimed)

https://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Randi, in my opinion, is a bit of a jerk. Our scientists can't predict with any certainty earthquakes, tornadoes, or whether or not we're entering into a period of global heating or cooling. Yet, he expects psychic abilities to work like clockwork. Well, they don't. I really don't have any control over it whatsoever. It happens extremely sporadically. It does not mean that it DOES NOT HAPPEN. It simply doesn't happen "on cue."

Red Pill wrote:

​would you not feel the need to challenge somebody you saw stating as fact ie they knew without doubt (because of their special powers) that the Flying Spagetti Monster was the one true god?

If you were using the rights words, as in "you believe" - I would have kept quiet, however when i see people stating unproven belief as fact, I can either be dishonest to myself and stay quiet, or I can do the right thing and speak up.

First off, no, I don't feel the need to "challenge" people just for the sake of challenging them, because there's a tremendous amount of hubris in that. But you confuse "fact" and "truth," and I never used the term "fact." I said: I KNOW. I know from my experience. I can't make it your truth, but it is certainly MINE. You keep missing the point: It has been PROVEN to me. I can't prove it to you, but it's already been proven to me.

As for your Flying Spaghetti Monster analogy, I already covered that. I already stated (somewhat clearly, I thought) the difference between my knowing *from experience* that there's a consciousness beyond matter. I said I don't know what heaven or hell is or whether they really exist. I don't know what God would "look like" or what He's really like. I do know someone who had a near-death experience (died on the operating table) and he told me that you can't describe God to someone who hasn't experienced Him. It's like explaining what a strawberry tastes like to someone who has never seen or tasted one before.

Now, if someone had a vision where they saw God as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that's fine, because I can surmise that God might show up in any number of forms. Maybe God thought that person would be more open to Him showing up in the form of spaghetti. Doesn't mean God *is* spaghetti! But that's where we get into theology, and reason, and being open to ideas.

Red Pill wrote:

or maybe you do? people have the habit of seeing what they want to see in films, but IMO it (the first one) has zero to do with spirituality or gods.

https://red-pill.org/the-matrix/meaning-philosophy/

the second & third films were rubbish, watched once and discarded, Im not qualified to comment on what they may have been about.

Then you are seeing what you want to see in the film, because the first film most definitely establishes the spiritual world of the film with the scene with the spoon-bending.

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. Neo: What truth? Spoon boy: There is no spoon. Neo: There is no spoon? Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

Red Pill wrote:

to all intents and purposes I am an atheist, as are we all about 99.9% of the gods throughout human history, modern atheists just go one god further than everybody else.

but because I, like you or anybody else have no proof (and therefore do not know) the only ethically honest position is agnostic, because people have beliefs, but again, none of us know

Trust me, if you start having psychic dreams that come true, you will KNOW and have no doubt either. And for you to say that "the only ethically honest position is agnostic" is dishonest - because you deny the mystical and spiritual experiences of others throughout the ages. You presume that because YOU PERSONALLY did not experience something, it did not happen.

As for this ridiculous but common atheistic "shot" taken at religions that "well, since you don't believe in other gods and you only believe in one God, so we're just going one God further..." ...this shows a real lack of understanding of world religion and how it evolved. In Hinduism, for example, the gods (plural) are actually manifestations of the One God. And actually, in Christianity, it's a Trinity, thee Gods in one.

At any rate, do a little more studying on theology, philosophy, world religion, esoteric mysticism, logic and the many scientific studies out there showing how prayer and energy healing are effective for healing illness, before stating that the only "honest" position is agnostic. Otherwise, you are being intellectually dishonest to yourself, and you are being just as attached to your own viewpoint as a fundamentalist is to theirs.

Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 9:29am
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I'm glad you guys got that

I'm glad you guys got that settled...;-)

Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 9:51am Rico
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Rico wrote: I'm glad you guys

Rico wrote:

I'm glad you guys got that settled...;-)

hey Rico.

I doubt we've settled anything, its going to be an agree to disagree outcome. :)

I can only show you the door.. Take the Red Pill #Occupy Money
Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 9:54am Stephanie C
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stephanie wrote:Red Pill

stephanie wrote:
Red Pill wrote:

I didn't ignore it, it's all part of your experiences and as such we have only your word for it, and no proof of any sort.

That's right. It's proof to me, but not to you, because you did not have the experience. But I have also had friends/family who can verify things (i.e., my family who I was staying with when I had the tsunami nightmares, which I reported to them). Just because you weren't around doesn't mean it didn't happen.

no, just that there is no proof, I have no doubt that you believe it.

Red Pill wrote:

without meaning to imply anything bad, please explain to me the difference between the kind of things you are saying and the kind of things said by many people imprisoned in mental institutions, who are all equally as sure they "know" and indeed their experiences are real to them, "WE all just don't get it"?

stephanie wrote:

Actually, I'm sure a good number of people hearing voices are really hearing voices, but our science doesn't know how to deal with them and so gives them pills to shut down the overly active and non-discriminating psychic ability. But going back to my previous comment, I don't live in a vacuum, friends and family are aware that I've had psychic hits. Never mind that they've had some of these experiences as well. Unless you think I'm imagining my friends and family too.

No of course I don't, but seriously, if I tell you that I KNOW that black is white, and that there is a 45 foot cat hunting moles on my lawn every night, and my friends and family all know that I know this, .. am I imagining my friends and family too?

what does this prove?

Red Pill wrote:

and if you can prove anything beyond 50/50 guessing and blaggery with any of this then you can claim the $1,000,000 million prize (that has been available to anybody who can do so for many years, and yet is still unclaimed)

https://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

stephanie wrote:
Randi, in my opinion, is a bit of a jerk. Our scientists can't predict with any certainty earthquakes, tornadoes, or whether or not we're entering into a period of global heating or cooling. Yet, he expects psychic abilities to work like clockwork. Well, they don't. I really don't have any control over it whatsoever. It happens extremely sporadically. It does not mean that it DOES NOT HAPPEN. It simply doesn't happen "on cue."

granted, but with all the people, and all the claims, of all the times, you would think that one, at some point, one, would be able to demonstrate *something* ?

actually I wouldn't, but if there were anything to it, then you would..?

Red Pill wrote:

​would you not feel the need to challenge somebody you saw stating as fact ie they knew without doubt (because of their special powers) that the Flying Spagetti Monster was the one true god?

If you were using the rights words, as in "you believe" - I would have kept quiet, however when i see people stating unproven belief as fact, I can either be dishonest to myself and stay quiet, or I can do the right thing and speak up.

stephanie wrote:
First off, no, I don't feel the need to "challenge" people just for the sake of challenging them, because there's a tremendous amount of hubris in that. But you confuse "fact" and "truth," and I never used the term "fact." I said: I KNOW. I know from my experience. I can't make it your truth, but it is certainly MINE. You keep missing the point: It has been PROVEN to me. I can't prove it to you, but it's already been proven to me.

did you miss the definition of truth? truth is not detached from reality or facts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Truth

has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with fact or reality.

I'm willing to accept that you believe it been proven to you, but the facts are, that nothing has been proven, and that's the only truth at this point.

if at some point God does decide to show himself, or somebody somewhere proves some kind of psychic ability, then I am open to new ideas based on evidence.

​currently there is no evidence of any of these things.

stephanie wrote:
As for your Flying Spaghetti Monster analogy, I already covered that. I already stated (somewhat clearly, I thought) the difference between my knowing *from experience* that there's a consciousness beyond matter. I said I don't know what heaven or hell is or whether they really exist. I don't know what God would "look like" or what He's really like. I do know someone who had a near-death experience (died on the operating table) and he told me that you can't describe God to someone who hasn't experienced Him. It's like explaining what a strawberry tastes like to someone who has never seen or tasted one before.

as with all other personal experiences, it's a combination of biochemical reactions, in this case brought on by trauma.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15494379

I have no doubt these "experiences" can be powerful and leave you wondering WTF, but seriously, so can LSD.

stephanie wrote:
Now, if someone had a vision where they saw God as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that's fine, because I can surmise that God might show up in any number of forms.

I personally would doubt the person's lucidity and sanity not be trying to fit my superstition to his story.

stephanie wrote:
Maybe God thought that person would be more open to Him showing up in the form of spaghetti. Doesn't mean God *is* spaghetti! But that's where we get into theology, and reason, and being open to ideas.

seriously? are you open to just any ideas? I only do reality based ones.

Red Pill wrote:

or maybe you do? people have the habit of seeing what they want to see in films, but IMO it (the first one) has zero to do with spirituality or gods.

https://red-pill.org/the-matrix/meaning-philosophy/

the second & third films were rubbish, watched once and discarded, Im not qualified to comment on what they may have been about.

stephanie wrote:
Then you are seeing what you want to see in the film, because the first film most definitely establishes the spiritual world of the film with the scene with the spoon-bending.

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. Neo: What truth? Spoon boy: There is no spoon. Neo: There is no spoon? Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

interesting you should pick that scene as an example of your point, when IMO it is the exact opposite.

in the direct context of film of course it means that everything you think you know is wrong, an illusion, made possible by feeding false signals into your signal receptors and fooling you into thinking you know what is going on, when in reality, you are in a tub of gloop, playing an advanced video simulation of life.

like every thought we have, like everything we *know*, the spoon only exists in your mind while you contemplate it, yes you might think you "know" the spoon is there, but if a a specific chemical were applied to your optical nerves, the spoon might morph into "Mr Hat" from South Park - what would you "know" then?

what if you were asleep and only dreaming of the spoon? you know there is a spoon in your hand, a team of scientific observers next to you would just see you sleep twitching.

that scene says, "what you think you know, isn't necessarily so".

metaphorically most philosophers take the message of The Matrix to mean the binding chains of neofeudalism and possibly debt - "a prison you are born into, that you cannot see or taste or touch, a prison for your mind"

nothing to do with God or spirituality, it wasn't until the 2nd one that all started.

Red Pill wrote:

to all intents and purposes I am an atheist, as are we all about 99.9% of the gods throughout human history, modern atheists just go one god further than everybody else.

but because I, like you or anybody else have no proof (and therefore do not know) the only ethically honest position is agnostic, because people have beliefs, but again, none of us know

stephanie wrote:
Trust me, if you start having psychic dreams that come true, you will KNOW and have no doubt either. And for you to say that "the only ethically honest position is agnostic" is dishonest - because you deny the mystical and spiritual experiences of others throughout the ages. You presume that because YOU PERSONALLY did not experience something, it did not happen.

no, I would possibly believe that something had happened to me, but be open to scientific, and frankly altogether far more likely and realistic alternatives.

stephanie wrote:
As for this ridiculous but common atheistic "shot" taken at religions that "well, since you don't believe in other gods and you only believe in one God, so we're just going one God further..." ...this shows a real lack of understanding of world religion and how it evolved. In Hinduism, for example, the gods (plural) are actually manifestations of the One God. And actually, in Christianity, it's a Trinity, thee Gods in one.

"evolved" is the wrong word, we evolved, religions were made up.

stephanie wrote:
At any rate, do a little more studying on theology, philosophy, world religion, esoteric mysticism, logic and the many scientific studies out there showing how prayer and energy healing are effective for healing illness, before stating that the only "honest" position is agnostic. Otherwise, you are being intellectually dishonest to yourself, and you are being just as attached to your own viewpoint as a fundamentalist is to theirs.

I feel no need to study any more fiction thanks, there are enough real-world factual events, happenings and major challenges in the world today for humankind to focus on, rather than wasting my time on ancient superstitions.

others feel differently based on their beliefs, and that's their right.

I can only show you the door.. Take the Red Pill #Occupy Money
Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 10:42am
CK
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No one knows for sure whether

No one knows for sure whether there is a creator or not. Personally, looking around at everything in this world, I wouldn't be surprised if there is one. I was born Jewish, raised in a private Jewish school, etc. But I don't take part in any of that anymore. I don't know what label or group I fall into.. I'd rather not fall into any group.

I do know that those with immense power in this world, they basically are at war with a supposed creator. They seek to Perfect that which was made Imperfect. And that means me, you, and everything else in this world. They also don't want people believing in a creator anymore, and that is one of the reasons why most religions have been destroyed.

It is what it is. Do some intense research and you'll see what I said is fact. People who are thinking "Would my Creator or "God" (don't like that word) .... approve of this?" Yeah, those types aren't really wanted anymore when there's a psycho world government, run by foundations, that know they are going to get in the way of that type of thinking, and would rather not have any opposition to their absurd actions.

Welp. Now back to you two cat fighting :)

BTW, there is also a new religion for our time. And I think it's very helpful to learn about it. Because it's utter bull shit and hilarious/sad how so many people get destroyed by it. It is commonly referred to as The New Age, and it is being pushed by so many authors, speakers, etc. Disgusts me.

We're not trading against the market, we're trading against ourselves.

Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 10:53am CK
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CK wrote: No one knows for

CK wrote:

No one knows for sure whether there is a creator or not.

and that's all we do actually know for sure. everything else is thoughts, ideas, memories, stories, or even theories if you prefer.

I can only show you the door.. Take the Red Pill #Occupy Money
Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 12:05pm
Tyler
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Red Pill

If our thoughts are merely results of chemical reactions in the brain, how is it that our thoughts can control the chemical reactions in the brain? How is it that the human mind can separate itself from the body and travel around the world?

You seem to believe only in science. Unfortunately, our science of the spirit is currently lacking. I hope it makes progress soon so you don't miss out on it!

I won't say I have any definitive knowledge of the creator. I can see what you're saying there about everything being theories on that point.

All the best,

Tyler

Mon, Feb 20, 2012 - 12:56pm Tyler
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Tyler wrote: If our thoughts

Tyler wrote:

If our thoughts are merely results of chemical reactions in the brain, how is it that our thoughts can control the chemical reactions in the brain?

that's called a feedback loop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback

Tyler wrote:
How is it that the human mind can separate itself from the body and travel around the world?

I would need to see the evidence for this to pass comment.

Tyler wrote:
You seem to believe only in science. Unfortunately, our science of the spirit is currently lacking. I hope it makes progress soon so you don't miss out on it!

thanks for your concern, - my concern for you would be of focusing on the wrong things in this life, it's wondrous enough here (and you might only get the one chance at it) without having to attribute it all to some higher being, and contemplating too long on a "next" life.

Tyler wrote:
I won't say I have any definitive knowledge of the creator. I can see what you're saying there about everything being theories on that point.

All the best,

Tyler

to you too amigo.

I can only show you the door.. Take the Red Pill #Occupy Money
Tue, Feb 21, 2012 - 8:03pm
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You still haven't explained...

Red Pill, for all your responses, you still haven't given me any sort of satisfactory, logical reason why I, and many of the people I know, have had predictive/telepathic psychic experiences. You talk about chemical reactions in the brain, but you keep skipping over all of the examples I've had of *knowing about things before they happened.*

I'm sorry I don't have proof for you, the likes of which would placate Randi. That would require me to record every dream I have daily, and get those dream entries time-stamped and verified by an independent notary, put into a vault, and then taken out afterwards when they correspond to the real world event.

That might not be a bad idea for an experiment...but the thing is, with you guys, nothing is ever good enough. Whatever scientific experiences are done in this area will be dismissed by you for one reason or another, because you are very attached to your point of view.

How about you take on this challenge? Try meditating for 5 minutes every day for 2 weeks and see what happens.

Try this mantra; it's Buddhist and doesn't require you to believe in an Old Man in the Sky:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG_lNuNUVd4

randomness