Unity of the Church:
(Last page - Pilgrim Church)
“God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the
Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us; And put no difference between us
and them, purifying their hearts by faith.... we believe that through the
grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved even as they."
* * * * *
As we review the long path already traversed by the Pilgrim Church,
certain salient points appear. Rising above the mass of detail, so poignant
at the time to those whose lives made it up, they rightly claim attention,
for they turn the experience of the way that lies behind into guidance for
the track that stretches before.
One is that the Pilgrim Church has possessed in the Scriptures a safe
and sufficient guide for all the way from Pentecost to the present time,
and has the assurance that it will suffice until that lamp shining in a
dark place shall pale before the glory of the appearing of Him Who is the
Living Word (2 Peter 1. 19).
A second is that the Pilgrim Church is separate from the World;
though in it is not of it. It never becomes an earthly institution. Though
a witness to the world and a blessing in it, yet, since the world which
crucified Christ does not change, and the disciple is content to be as his
Master, the pilgrims still exhort one another with the words: “Let us
go forth therefore unto Him
without the camp,
bearing His reproach. For
here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come" (Heb. 13. 13,
A third is that the Church is One. In so far as we know ourselves to be
members of the Pilgrim Church we acknowledge as our fellow-pilgrims
all who tread the Way of Life. Passing differences, however keen at the
time, grow dim as we view the whole pilgrimage spread out before us. In
deepest humility as we think of the littleness of our own part, and with
heartfelt delight in our fellows, we claim them as such. Their sufferings
are ours, their testimony ours, because their Saviour, Leader, Lord and
Hope is ours. By enlightening of the Holy Spirit we have learned, with
them, to rejoice with the Father when He says: “This is My beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3. 17). With them, too, we rejoice in
the prospect of that day when the Son will present to Himself “a glorious
church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing" (Eph. 5.27).
I have been pondering if I should bring up some views of the end times that are outside the 95% of the steeple house divisions. I know it would be divisive and that is not good. I have long felt that the pre-trib beliefs have some major holes and we have taught a different view of the scriptures for decades. Then while I was pondering if I should wade into this subject at table, I saw this posted on the SQ site this morning:https://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/
Could we discuss this without flames? My position has been that the S.H. systems have set the stage for a body of people who have an empty bug out spiritual bag when they are still here as the seven years begin. Jim
By Kirk Cameron
December 12, 2003
I was recently listening to a song by one of my favorite songwriters. She was writing about how she longed to be taken away from all the problems here on earth and brought home to Heaven with God. She speaks of feeling so weary, tired, and wanting to go home. The song speaks of wanting the Lord to hurry up and wrap up history, snatch her away, and bring this sin-soaked world to a close so the saints can get on with seeing the Lord face to face.
Do you ever feel this way? Do you sometimes wish that God would quietly bring those of us who love Him into Heaven with Him, put an end to all the evil in the world, and cause every knee to bow to Jesus? I understand. Life is hard sometimes. Even for songwriters and actors. We have ups and downs. Good days and bad days. Sometimes things don´t go the way we want. People at work make fun of our faith in Jesus. They mock us when we say we believe in the Bible. Most people in the world are not Christians and their ungodly lifestyles can wear on us day after day. The influence of the secular media is polluting the morals of our children and that really concerns us. Let´s all pray the Lord comes quickly to save us and our children from any more of this evil and then pray no one gets left behind"¦right?
How can we be so blind and selfish to even think such thoughts? We´re tired? We´re weary? We want God to hurry up so we can go home?
Come on an imaginary trip with me back in time. It´s a month ago, during the most horrific wildfires Southern California has experienced in recorded history. The flames are well over 500 degrees. The spinning red towers of fire dwarf the tallest trees, shroud the mountains with black smoke, burn over a half-million acres, consume thousands of homes, and kill hundreds of unsuspecting people. You are a firefighter. You have been a member of the department for as long as you can remember and have been faithful to show up at the station on time. Today, you get an urgent call from the Captain to abandon the station, load the rescue equipment, and go into the mountains to save men, women, and children from the flames. Your captain is counting on you! He needs you to drop everything and join in the rescue mission immediately. Time is of the essence. Human beings are being turned into white ash. You decide you´ll pray about it. You think to yourself, "œI care about those poor people, but I´m tired. I´m weary from cleaning the engines all these years. I´ve put in my time here at the station. I think I´ve already proven my loyalty to the Captain, and besides, I´m not doing my family any favors by breathing in all that smoke and risking my own health. I just wish the Captain would relieve me and let me go home."
Do you remember when the news featured two brave Southern California firefighters who were fulfilling their call to duty, courageously saving their neighbors´ homes while they watched their own homes go up in flames? They could have given in to weariness and abandoned their duty. They could have thought of themselves instead of the fate of others. But we´re so glad they didn´t. They are true and faithful firefighters. They heard the call of the Captain and joined the rescue mission, pulling people from the flames, saving lives.
What kind of Christians are we? Let´s take another quick trip in time. This time you´re in Hell, interviewing those who have been in the Lake of Fire for 10,000 years. Tormented, they´re waiting for the flames to be quenched and the worms to die, but they won´t. Jesus warned that anything would be better this place. You suddenly see your next door neighbor, members of your church, and a relative weeping, gnashing their teeth, and staring at you. Your neighbor approaches and asks why you are interviewing him. You tell him you are wondering why he chose to reject Christ. He says, "œBecause I was proud. I was arrogant. I was so, so, wrong. And now I and many of your loved ones are in this place of torment, agony, and endless misery." He then asks you a question. "œIf you knew I was going to this place, why didn´t you tell me? If you knew this was real, why didn´t you warn me? Were you afraid I would laugh at you? Did you think you were being my friend by not bringing up the subject? Were you too tired to bother to help me understand? I know I didn´t make it easy for you to share your faith, but why didn´t you find a way to get through to me? You didn´t even try! Why didn´t you show me the way of escape? Why didn´t you tell me about the cross that could have saved me? Why? I don´t understand how you could have known about this and not told me. Why?"
As I write this, I am feeling convicted myself. We as the Church have become so complacent about the lost. Bill Bright said only 2% of Christians share their faith regularly with others. Do we really believe what Jesus said about Hell? How does God view our self-centered complaints disguised as prayers about feeling tired, weary, and worn out, in light of the long, hot, agonizing days of those in the Lake of Fire? Have we really done all we can to save those around us who are in danger of being consumed by the wrath that is to come? Have you personally labored so hard for the lost that you have experienced what other Christians have endured"”sweat great drops of blood, lived without food, without shelter, been stoned, whipped, left for dead, nailed to a cross, beheaded, burned at the stake, and been viewed as the garbage of society, all to save someone else´s soul? I personally have not labored that hard. And so I cannot join in the prayer to be relieved of my duty and taken home to Heaven. My Captain has called me to abandon my thoughts of weariness and save souls. "œTherefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed." (Heb. 12:12-13) Instead of daydreaming about the wedding feast in Heaven with all the saints back at headquarters, I´m shifting my thoughts to my Lord´s commands to "œGo into the world and preach the gospel to every creature"¦" (Mark 16:15) "œHave compassion, making a difference; saving others with fear, pulling them out of the fire"¦" (Jude 22-23), that sinners might "œTurn to [God] and be saved..." (Isaiah 45:22)
I wonder if Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye would ever consider writing a book called Stay Behind, about a group of Christians who would rather stay and reach the lost rather than depart and be with the Lord? I wonder if it would sell? I´m sure they could get the Apostle Paul to endorse it"”"œFor to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh (stay behind) is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain"¦" (Phil 1:21-25a, my emphasis added)
Luke 17:26-37Amplified Bible (AMP)
26 And [just] as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the time of the Son of Man.
27 [People] ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, right up to the day when Noah went into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 So also [it was the same] as it was in the days of Lot. [People] ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 But on the [very] day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [them] all.
30 That is the way it will be on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
31 On that day let him who is on the housetop, with his belongings in the house, not come down [and go inside] to carry them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
32 Remember Lot’s wife!
33 Whoever tries to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve and [a]quicken it.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 [b]Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
37 Then they asked Him, Where, Lord? He said to them, Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures or eagles be gathered together.
First it must be stated that there will be many in the Kingdom who were incorrect as to pre., mid and post. It is not a matter of having the correct view but in having the Life of Christ within. There may be many who are not in the Kingdom because of becoming lazy within their view. Why really knows?
Some of my concerns with the pre, apart from Darby, and others, is that they always go back to the days of Noah. Many want to show that the days of Noah were the days of the Nephilim and that becomes a theme. There were giants in the land but we do not see any today. If there were, a stone from David's sling would still do the job. Worrying about giants is a waste of time. jmo
The Lord stated above very clearly in v. 27 that the people were doing as we do today. Eating, drinking, marrying until the day that Noah entered the ark. THEN the rest of the world was removed, not the family of God. They were destroyed, lots of bodies floating by the ship and that is where the bodies were. (V.37)
Next he gives us the picture of Lot and his family. V. 28 and 29. Yes the people of God, Lot and his two daughters were spared and the rest were again removed (destroyed) and that is where the many bodies could have been found.
Then we see in v. 30: "That is the way it will be on the day that the Son of Man is revealed". Do we "hear" that?? When do we expect the Son of Man to be revealed?
V.32: Remember Lot's wife. She was surly removed.
Then we get to v. 34-37. Two men in the field, two men in bed, and two women grinding together. All of a sudden, the S.H. world makes a change and says that the one's removed are the Saints, exactly opposite of what the Lord has warned about.
Left behind and not taken by a thief is looking better all the time.
If we were voting, I would vote for pre at every election day. Those voted will not count. All above is jmo. Jim
Matthew 13:30King James Version (KJV)
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
35 Keep your loins girded and your lamps burning,
36 And be like men who are waiting for their master to return home from the marriage feast, so that when he returns from the wedding and comes and knocks, they may open to him immediately.
37 Blessed (happy, fortunate, and [l]to be envied) are those servants whom the master finds awake and alert and watching when he comes. Truly I say to you, he will gird himself and have them recline at table and will come and serve them!
38 If he comes in the second watch (before midnight) or the third watch (after midnight), and finds them so, blessed (happy, fortunate, and [m]to be envied) are those servants!
39 But of this be assured: if the householder had known at what time the burglar was coming, he would have been awake and alert and watching and would not have permitted his house to be dug through and broken into.
(all of psalms 37 is great)
28 For the Lord delights in justice and forsakes not His saints; they are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked [in time] shall be cut off.
29 [Then] the [consistently] righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever.
NW - Interesting discussion and quite long one, I’m sure if we stay on it in any depth.
Seems Christians are irreconcilably split into three camps, Pre, Mid and Post. (A -millennial) is not even in three mainstream IMO, so we will leave that one out. Agreed - it is really a non essential issue and there will be (or are) all three camps in the Kingdom.
I liked Kirk Cameron’s article and he raises some good points, I like Ray Comfort as well, (the way of the Master website link) probably no finer equipping-evangelist than Ray around today. IMO.
Let me say up front I am not 100% convinced up front of the correct position, but will give you a few short points of tension and conclusions that I have arrived at from my studies that lead me to a pre to mid-point at the very latest.
As Briefly as I can; ……
1) “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy”. Daniel 9:24
The prophecy of Daniel’s seventy weeks is for Thy people - Isarel - O.T. - Old Covenant Israel. (The Jewish People) AND Thy Holy city – Jerusalem.
Even with a cursory observation one can see that “everlasting righteousness”, has not completely been brought in, and a complete fulfillment of ‘all prophecy’ has not occurred as to “seal(ing) up the vision and prophecy”
So there remains, all or part of the final missing 70th week or Shemitah left yet to see fulfillment. We further see this week described in verse 27…… which is still yet future.
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate”. Daniel 9:27 .
Long discussions can flow from this verse, but basically this in mainstream scholaraly views is describing the AC that goes into a rebuilt tabernacle/temple and pulls the plug on Jewish worship and then proclaims himself to be god.
The point of all this is that the prophecy was against thy people – Israel – the Jewish people and thy holy city. – Jerusalem. Christians had no part in any of this and it is also not talking about Washington D.C or any other major cities. It was a prophecy against and pertaining to Israel and Jerusalem.
2) One really has to understand what went down on the Cross of Calvary and the essence of the Gospel to fully grasp future events in the Tribulation - Great tribulation and who those events are for.
When Jesus Christ shed His own blood for the remission of sins on Calvary, it was a horrible agonizing death. Between the beatings, floggings and then the final crucifixion He suffered immensely. Yet if one focuses solely on just the physical death of Christ, one can be flirting dangerously close with Blasphemy.
What was really happening at the same time as the physical crucifixion, was the fact that God the Father was pouring out His just and Divine Wrath upon the spotless, sinless Son of God as a just and Righteous punishment for the sin of mankind.
“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Mark 15:34 (also read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22).
This is important because Jesus took the full penalty for all the believe, He took the full weight and just punishment, the wrath of God against sin, for all the world and specifically and salvifically for all those that would ever believe in Him.
That is why it says of all believers in 1 Thes. 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
For those in Christ, the wrath of God has been satisfied, once and for all on the Cross of Calvary, were he to punish one again that would violate His justice or violate ‘double jeopardy’ for the believer if you will. (He already punished Christ in our place)
Why state all this……
Well the 70th week of Daniel, Tribulation, Great tribulation and what the OT calls THE ‘Great and terrible Day of the Lord’ contains just that…. Divine Wrath being poured out upon a rebellious mankind and lost and rebellious world at some point yet future.
All one need do is type in ‘Day of the Lord’ in a word search program and read the passages.
“Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.” Amos 5:18
“Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.” Isaiah 13:6
“Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isaiah 13:9 .
Also notice in the Revelation…
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:” Rev. 6:16
Also note in Rev 5, who opens the book containing Gods judgments upon the earth in Revelation beginning with the seal, trumpet and bowl or vial judgments??
Jesus Christ……. No? and we know for sure the Vial judgments contain the wrath of God.
“And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.” Rev. 5:4-5
“And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. Rev. 15:1
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Rev. 15:7
Question for all; If these judgments do in fact contain the wrath of God, why would Christ open these judgments upon His own Bride?, the redeemed.?
I know that this raises some timing questions, and that is a long discussion as well, but sometime future, in the ‘Great and terrible day of the Lord’, during the 70th week, Divine wrath will fall. Does that occur at the beginning, mid-point or end of the 70th week?
IF one is a post-triber and a Christian, that would mean one will undergo and experience Divine wrath at some point during the 70th week if one is here to the very end of it. No?
That is why I see the ‘Great and terrible Day of the Lord’ starting at the beginning, to no later than the midpoint of the 70th week and the Christians or believers being removed prior to that and thw wrath of God. jmho.
This also fits with both Noah and Lot, Noah and his family were safe in the arc and rose above the judgment or ‘wrath of God’ contained in the flood. Likewise Lot was physically removed from Sodom prior to God’s judgment or ‘wrath’ on Gomorrah. The arc this time is Jesus Christ.
As far as verses supporting this aside from the ones normally quoted to support the rapture or translation of the saints in the NT, here is a interesting one.
“Woe is me! (the people left) for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit. The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
That they may do evil with both hands earnestly,(the people left) the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up. The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity. Micah 7:1-4 .
The Jerusalem Bible renders the last verse “Now your judgment from the North approaches”, and is describing most likely, the Ezekiel 38-39 war and Russia’s invasion of Israel from the North, and it most likely occurs at the mid-point of the 70th week, IMO.
That is why I think the Ezekiel 38-39 war is when America also get’s it in the neck. From my studies I see the first act of Divine wrath as being the taking of Babylon within the 70th week, wherever it falls therein, and from my reading the descriptions of her demise, that will definitely be Divine Wrath.
The short of it from the above is that I see believers removed before this wrath of God falls on an unbelieving world, that however is not to say it might not get a little rough and difficult before then and we might experience some very hard times prior. We always have throughout history and around the world presently outside this country.
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13
Everywhere I look within the scriptures, when talking about the tribulation and the coming of the Lord, it just paints a different view for me. I do like your view and hope it is the Truth. But then I see this again:
Matthew 24:29-31Amplified Bible (AMP)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and [a]beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the [b]universe to the other.
Well I see the Lord saying "after the tribulation of those days". Sun will be darkened (bad news), moon will not shed it's light (no sun), stars fall from sky (ouch), powers of heaven shaken. That is a bad day.
Next we see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. He sends His angels with a loud trumpet call, they will gather His elect( his chosen ones) (still here), from one end of the universe to the other.
My hope is for those at table to be ready to be gathered as the Elect, whenever that day comes. Tribulation is currently across the planet as Christians are being killed, beheaded, etc. everywhere in the ME and only tolerated in Israel. They are not being removed. jmo
We all have studied "Now Faith" from Hebrews. This article from the SQ site is what "Now tribulation" is about.
These things happening today,make me ponder if maybe, just maybe, the seven years may have already started! I do not know!
This response deserves it own post.
“Many want to show that the days of Noah were the days of the Nephilim and that becomes a theme. There were giants in the land but we do not see any today. If there were, a stone from David's sling would still do the job. Worrying about giants is a waste of time. Jmo”
NW dear brother, the ‘many’ from that statement includes me; you know that from all my posts. . No offense taken.
Just to clarify, this may seem like a small point, but it's not, the Nephilim are the offspring of the ‘sons of god’ and ‘human women’ from Genesis 6, They (the Nephilim) may not be coming back but the ‘sons of god’, the fallen angels, are, and I don’t worry about them, I’m just telling you they are coming back according to scripture.
In the ‘Days of Noah’ the text tells us……
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Genesis 6:5.
Things were bad in Noah’s day morally, no question about it, in fact the text emphasizes that, however, was it really all just about the wickedness of man?. If so, anyone care to argue how the ‘Days of Noah’ could have possibly been any worse morally than modern our societies and all our modern high tech vises, sex saturated, drug ridden wickedness and iniquities?
That is why I firmly believe that the two most over looked and non addressed aspects of the ‘Days of Noah’ are the ‘sons of god’ and Noah’s observation of ‘Nimrod’s Babylon’. Both of which reemerge in the last Days, just prior to the return of Jesus Christ, and one has every right to bring those two anomalies forward along with the ‘moral wickedness’ of the day.
If one wants to read about this, wonder over to the ‘Zionism’ thread and start reading at posts #1.
I have posted enough on Babylon there so I won’t rehash it. Yet I believe that if one is a ‘post triber’ and really expects to be here to the end, one better prepare to see the return of these ‘sons of god’ because they are coming back and I doubt a smooth stone will kill them as it did with a Nephilim.
This in IMO, this aspect of the Day’s of Noah, is THE Strong Delusion of 2 Thes. 2:8-12
“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” .
Saw this little gem today that is going to be released in February of 2015, with the same theme as Ridley Scott’s recent ‘Prometheus’. Aliens’ ‘seeding us’ - mankind, and they are returning via a good cop- bad cop routine and if one is at all familiar with the study of these ‘sons of god’ or fallen angels you will see how Hollywood is programming the masses for this very coming event however it eventually plays out.
They even work in the ‘Messiah aspect’ with that young girl in the trailer battling the angels or ‘aliens’ for control of Earth…. Sound familiar to anyone??? I wonder where they got this story line???
Listen closely at the 2:30 mark when the trailer is over and they are showing additional previews, I could not believe my ears…….. Listen closely and turn up the volume……..
Jupiter Ascending - New Trailer - Official Warner Bros.
Anyway, this is the real NWO, IMO the occult is working toward, the return of Satan and the ‘sons of god’ - his fallen angels, and from scripture, it indicates the Lord will be the one allow them to return for a short time as a final judgment upon a fallen, rebellious and lost mankind, then in turn, He destroys them with the “brightness of His coming”.
“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Rev. 12:9
Anyway, one does not want to be here for this, it will be worse than any horror movie imaginable, even the trailer above.
Perhaps this post belongs in Zionism, but you started this
I like part of the above:
Perhaps this post belongs in Zionism, but you started this
How could one argue with any of that? Not me!
The fallen angels have never left. The demonized people have never been hiding. When Jesus returned to His Abode, the demons just kept working, full time, on earth and the Church was given the calling to deal with them , now and until the end. Dealing with a giant of flesh and blood is a whole different dealing than with a spirit/demon that is there from a different dimension. Is the S.H.'s ready to deal directly with the troops of Satan? Only a few.
One good thing Jer. Jr. is that this topic is one of your favorites and it has fired you up to help many. Thanks
Have to agree with you across the board, if one were to say to a Christian outside North America that ‘Great Tribulation was coming’…….. they might respond…… “You mean we are not already in it?”
Also, as we have talked, there is a possibility we are in the first half of the week already. It is possible IMO. Time will tell.
Agree again also about the demonic realm being active throughout the church age and even since the fall for that matter. The demonic spiritual influence/possession is still very much dominant in the world, it’s systems, and those still under it’s influence, you know that better than I from firsthand experience.
I am not sure if I would call this topic a favorite, I for some reason just understand it when I read/study it, not as well as some, but better than most.
Not that I have it all correct but when I read…….
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” Jude 1:6
It indicates these 'angels' will one day be physically loosed back into our realm, it just makes me wonder how that will all play out. Perhaps it’s just above my pay grade but the whole UFO - paranormal phenomena seems like a dead fit to scripture.
If it does play out as I see it coming, you are right it will be a ‘Spiritual Pearl Harbor’ not only for the world, but also those in the SH system that are sound asleep.
I do pray it helps some or at least get them thinking.
That is a great post for sure!
Seems like we are going to wade right in, Kudos.
Greetings first, may the Lord bless us, and the Holy Spirit guide our steps, in Jesus name,
I have to catch up first on all the posts and information posted.
Kudos, NWV for Gavin Finley, a fine brother, and an excellent scholar.
Anyway, now to study, and maybe I will be able to really make up my mind with this discussion.
I'll pipe in as I get up to speed, thanks Guys.
Praise the Lord, thanksgiving and blessings to Him forever.
edit. [ I just read, Jjr. 1130 post, awesome, maybe I'll just sit and listen and learn.] :0)
edit. [ although sitting on my hands, zipped, has never been my strong suit.] :>)
Revelation 5:1-5New King James Version (NKJV)
The Lamb Takes the Scroll
5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read[a] the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose[b] its seven seals.”
Is it possible that we have already worked our way through the first five seals of Rev. 5 & 6 ?
There is an interesting verse in Chapter 6:11: "Then they were each given a long and flowing and festive white robe and told to rest and wait patiently a little while longer, UNTIL THE NUMBER SHOULD BE COMPLETE OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS AND THEIR BRETHREN WHO WERE TO BE KILLED AS THEY THEMSELVES HAD BEEN".
Now that is something to ponder. Jim
Zola Levitt wrote a booklet titled, A Christian Love Story, this booklet is a wonderful resource. You can purchase on at https://store.levitt.com/ for $3.00. Here is the direct page link: https://store.levitt.com/CLS The below links also teaches about the bride and wedding. https://amos37.com/2012/08/29/jewish-wedding-and-the-rapture/ https://www.rapturewatch.net/apps/videos/videos/show/17144431-a-jewish-w... There are also videos on youtube...just type in, Jewish wedding rapture
A few thoughts on your post 1131 which I did not see till today, missed it somehow.
I agree it is hard to get the sequencing in a correct order, perhaps it has been worded that way to keep us watching, and in expectancy to both be ready to go, and ready to stay. Time will tell how it plays out.
In a way we are, and always have been in ‘tribulation’ of sorts in this age. No?
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22
Matthew 24:29-31 could be explained if the first half of Daniel’s 70th week is ‘Tribulation’ and the second half is the start of ‘The Day of the Lord’ or ‘Great Tribulation’, and verses 29-31 are indeed a description of the end of the tribulation.
If you move up a few verses from the passage you posted on in Matt 24: 29-31 you find this
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea (Israel) flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Matthew 24:15-21 .
This would mean that “Immediately after the tribulation of those days”: (verses 29-31) would be referencing the verse right above (15-21) which are again talking about ‘Great Tribulation’
Question to ponder…….
What if the second half of the 70th week starts ‘The Great and terrible day of the Lord’????………..
When one visibly sees the “abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet”???
Think about this for a moment…….. when Jesus came the first time He made a valid presentation of Himself to the House of Israel, as their Messiah, we know that they rejected Him and they then crucified Him, yet that was really God’s plan all along for Christ to make an atonement for, and take away sin.
But just hypothetically… what if Israel had actually embraced Him as their long awaited Messiah???……
Would not then the ‘Day of the Lord’ immediately commenced ? and the ‘Wrath of God’ then have been poured out and fallen on Israel’s enemies????
After all, from reading some of the various prophecies is that not what Israel was expecting their Messiah to do???….. Crush Israel oppressors and usher in the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom?
Jesus did not do those things the first time so they reasoned therefore He could not possibly be their Messiah. Problem was they were reading and misapplying the wrong passages of the first advent……
Point of this being, did Jesus already fulfill the first half of Daniels 70th week???? And what ramifications would that have prophetically??
Lets read Daniel 9:24 again
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
One could easily argue Jesus did the highlighted above already on Calvary No?
finish the transgression…… make an end of sins….. make reconciliation for iniquity……. bring in everlasting righteousness (a everlasting righteousness for those that believe)
Yet as I pointed out, in a post above, He still has not as of yet……., “seal(ed) up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint(ed) the most Holy”…….. That is all still yet future to us.
Well ……I can’t say for sure if Jesus fulfilled the first half of Daniel’s 70th week but it is something to consider. No?
Stay with me now and I will try to tie it all together……… This is just Jj speculation on my part, just thinking out loud now……..
Hypothetically, If Jesus did fulfill the first half of Daniels 70th week, then the hammer and wrath will fall at the midpoint or the last 3.5 years of the final week and we could have just slid into the week unawares (April 14th 2014?).
The only other time ‘Great Tribulation’ is used in the Bible is Rev. 2:22 & Rev. 7:14
The first use in when Jesus is addressing the Church of Thyatira, which was a church noted for compromise.
“Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.” Rev. 2:22
A group within the Church at Thyratira is warned that unless they repent, they would be cast into ‘Great Tribulation’……… Why?? … because, as of then…….. they we not really overcomer’s and had not repented.
Who is an overcomer????…..
“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5
The issue is not so much the ‘compromise’ of Thyatira, because who doesn’t have some measure and degree of compromise in their walk, the real issue is……… is one truly born form above??? And thus an Overcomer?
The next passage with “Great Tribulation” is Rev 7:14
“ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:13-14.
All mankind has a ‘robe’ of sorts, and according to Isaiah 64:6, they are ‘filthy rags’. A robe represents ‘righteousness’ in scripture none of us have any. When one believes and is saved and redeemed, the believer is given a ‘white robe’ representing the ‘Righteousness of Christ’.
Truth be told; as believers….all of our robes get dirty from time to time yet, they are still white robes even though they get soiled (Read Romans 7) No? Or put another way, we may get out feet dirty, yet we still have the ‘white robe’ given by Christ.
Jesus confirms this in John 13:10
“Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.” (not all – referring to Judas) John 13:10.
“These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”. Rev 7:14
These people come out of ‘Great Tribulation’, and now have white robes, (That means they did not have a white robe going into ‘Great tribulation’) they are in fact ‘Great Tribulation’ Saints and we know from other passages that there will be a ‘great multitude’ of people saved during the 70th week. (Or in this scenario, the second half).
Well, like I have said before, I am just trying to put the pieces together and they may be wrong with the above ramblings, just a few things to think about. I do know when the AC actually does walk into the rebuild tabernacle (on the temple mount) and proclaims himself to be god (abomination of desolation), all hell will break loose, and I see that at the mid-point from my studies.
I am going to throw a post up in ‘Zionism’ today as they have been battling rather intently over the temple mount or Mt. Zion recently and it could soon spark a major war.
NW – Went to post this and saw your last post, yes, IMO, we may be in the first half of the 70th week, and into a few seal judgments, the wrath is contained in the bowl or vial judgments. Sequence is; seal, trumpet, vial…… when we get to the 7th seal judgment, then starts the trumpet judgments, when we get to the 7th trumpet judgment, then starts the vial judgment. JMO
Lunch hour is over - back to work.
You know those things you hear that are brought to remembrance time and again....here are a few of mine. Give your troubles to God, he will be up all night anyway Satan always marks his works Israel is God's wife, the church is Jesus's bride
Jer. Jr.: There are a huge amount of things to consider in your above post and I like them. One could first look up the following: Rev. 11:3, 12:6, 11:2, 13:5, 12:14, Daniel 7:25, 9:27, 12:7, 12:14, 12:11 and 12:12. We have been conditioned to view a seven year end times period but really do not think about many different 42 month periods. Some of them may have several fulfillments while happening over the same 42 months.
Then we have the concept from your post about the Lord doing His Work during His first coming and being about three and one half years. Yes, was that the first half of Daniels week? We also have that date you pointed out of April 14th, 2014. Was than an important date? Might be!
"If" the Church is informed by the Spirit that there is only 42 months left of Daniel's week, and they are still here, revival could finally break forth. jmo
Absolutely loved your last post and you see where I am going with this.
That was exactly my point. The tribulation period is split it in half, like a razor….. 1260 - 1260, forty two months, and forty two months, in numerous places in scripture. Why is that??
The beast also gets a shot at the world for 42 months. (Babylon/America under the UN)
“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast”. Rev 17:12
This one hour prophetically, is also 3.5 years or 42 months.
Yet why Lord, split it into 3.5 and 3.5……????
Why is that???????? Has the first half seen fulfillment, are we going to resume right where we left off at the midpoint of the week so that no one will notice except those that are watching will know when we enter it???
What happens at the mid-point that is so radical???
Israel could have pronounced Jesus as there Messiah, are we going to resume the final ticks on the prophetic clock when the AC proclaims himself to be the god at the mid-point? Paralleling the same point in the final week when Israel rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah (God)? Hummmmm…..
As we see below, 1260 and 1260 is relevant; it indicates that he that makes it to the 1290 and 1335 is blessed, meaning that the average Joe that somehow makes it through ‘tribulation’ or ‘Great tribulation’ physically into the arrival of the physical Kingdom of God, in flesh and blood, and into THE Millennium or the Millennial reign of Christ on this earth, is blessed. (Not just lucky, but blessed)
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days”. (1290)
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” (1335) Dan 12:11-12.
This verse would explain the or any coming revival with regard to what is just ahead……
“Many shall be purified, and made white, (read white robes) and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Dan 12:10.
All that said, if the whole 70th week is ‘tribulation’ or ‘Great tribulation’, that blows all the above out of the water, and all this is just thinking out loud, and simply trying to reason it out from my (our) own studies.
I often do this because all the ‘great prophetic scholars’ that study this out, and for the most part are all too willing to tell us exactly how this will all go down, but yet can’t even yet identify America in Bible prophecy, they by in large don’t even know who the latter day Babylon is.
How clear really is their prophetic vision?
Best to go back to scripture for oneself…. Always.
The AC likes to copy everything that he can to be like the Lord but is a failure. Evil holidays have replaced feast days. Look at what stands on the temple mount. Jesus came riding on a donkey colt and this is a big event in the timing of all things.
Jesus Enters Jerusalem as King of Israel
The scene now shifts from a private setting to a public setting. Given the tensions and expectations that have been growing (cf. 10:39-42; 11:46-57; 12:11), Jesus' entry into Jerusalem is very dramatic. By openly entering the city where he is a marked man he takes the first step toward the final confrontation.
Passover was one of the three feasts that Jews were supposed to attend in Jerusalem, and consequently the population of Jerusalem swelled enormously at this time. As this great crowd is beginning to gather from around Israel and the larger world of the diaspora, news about Jesus is spreading, and people are wondering whether he will come to the feast (11:55-56). On Sunday, the day after the party in Bethany at which Mary anointed Jesus, news arrives that Jesus is on his way to Jerusalem (v. 12), and a crowd of pilgrims, presumably those who had been wondering if he would come, goes out to meet him. Mary's private expression of emotion is now matched by the crowd's public outpouring of enthusiasm.
They shout Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! (v. 13). These are lines from one of the Psalms of Ascents (Ps 118:25-26) sung as a welcome to pilgrims coming up to Jerusalem. As such, this is an entirely appropriate thing to do as Jesus is coming up to Jerusalem. But there is more involved here. The cry of Hosanna! is a Hebrew word (hoshi`ah-na) that had become a greeting or shout of praise but that actually meant "Save!" or "Help!"
See also John 12: 12-14.
Who really knows what day that this event really happened? The AC wants to also enter Jerusalem and be seen and praised as the saving one for mankind but he is doomed. That could be the start of a 42 month period. Will the people on the street that day in Jerusalem and on the live feed from the net, shout out "save or help" as they make a wave offering of their lifted hands into the sky?
Yes Jer. Jr., you may have a view that had been hidden. jmo
John 2:1-11Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2 Jesus also was invited with His disciples to the wedding.
3 And when the wine was all gone, the mother of Jesus said to Him, They have no more wine!
4 Jesus said to her, [[a]Dear] woman, what is that to you and to Me? [What do we have in common? Leave it to Me.] My time (hour to act) has not yet come.
5 His mother said to the servants, Whatever He says to you, do it.
6 Now there were six waterpots of stone standing there, as the Jewish custom of purification (ceremonial washing) demanded, holding twenty to thirty gallons apiece.
7 Jesus said to them, Fill the waterpots with water. So they filled them up to the brim.
8 Then He said to them, Draw some out now and take it to the manager of the feast [to the one presiding, the superintendent of the banquet]. So they took him some.
9 And when the manager tasted the water just now turned into wine, not knowing where it came from—though the servants who had drawn the water knew—he called the bridegroom
10 And said to him, Everyone else serves his best wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then he serves that which is not so good; but you have kept back the good wine until now!
11 This, the first of His signs (miracles, wonderworks), Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory [by it He displayed His greatness and His power openly], and His disciples believed in Him [adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him].
There are some interesting things within the scriptures above. This is the place (time line) in which Jesus performed the "first" signs of miracles. Why then Jer. Jr.? Why at a wedding feast?? Preachers of the past say he was forced into doing it because of His wanting to help out the situation at the wedding. He started His time clock of coming out to the world at a wedding and will finish what He has looked for at the "final wedding" jmo!
We see above that the wedding was on the "third day", Jesus and His disciples were there, He said "what do we have in common" ( will all the guests that are there), the "manager" tested the wine and that good wine was used at the end of the wedding. ( I will not taste of the fruit of the vine until...........................................(timing)!
Well, it is possible that that last seven year period started at a wedding long ago and the clock stopped 42 months later. Who knows?