In Bosnia that their greatest development took place.
In the twelfth century they were already very numerous there, and spread
to Spalato and Dalmatia. Here they came into conflict with the Roman
Catholic Church. The title of the rulers of Bosnia was Ban, the most em-
inent of these being Kulin Ban. In 1180 this ruler was addressed by the
Pope as a faithful adherent of the Church, but by 1199 it was acknowl-
edged that he and his wife and family and ten thousand Bosnians had
joined the Bogomil or Patarene heresy, otherwise churches of believers,
in Bosnia. Minoslav, Prince of the Herzegovina, took the same stand,
as did also the Roman Catholic Bishop of Bosnia. The country ceased
to be Catholic and experienced a time of prosperity that has remained
proverbial ever since.
There were no priests, or rather the priesthood of all believers was
acknowledged. The churches were guided by elders who were chosen by
lot, several in each church, an overseer (called grandfather), and minis-
tering brethren called leaders and elders. Meetings could be held in any
house and the regular meeting-places were quite plain, no bells, no altar,
only a table, on which might be a white cloth and a copy of the Gospels.
A part of the earnings of the brethren was set aside for the relief of sick
believers and of the poor and for the support of those who travelled to
preach the Gospel among the unconverted.
Well this section speaks for itself. Any ground that they may have gained at that time, has been lost by the majority today.
NW VIEW, Jeremiah Jr., Silver66
(that was very helpful information for me thank you.)
Thank you for your input. I wanted to let you know what silenced the ones asking the questions:
“Will the prayers of the S.H.'s raise up a Billy Graham type for our next president? NO! We will be given what the nation wants and deserves. Nothing will change for America until "If My people, who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray...................
Do we really believe that we can force the population to surrender to the Christian view that we force on them through the voting booth? The problem is that we have failed to be that witness that the Lord has called us to be in a world under judgment. The world sees a divided S.H. system, thousands of them, sin in the camp.”
Somehow we think the method that Our Lord has given to the Church is the voting booth. We will just force the unbelievers into submission and present our Christians views for the world. Is that the Way, is that the Method, or have we been deceived? The political arena will NEVER replace the Light that has been given to the Church as it must shine out to those who walk in complete darkness! “
When we as believers lose focus of this primary objective we drift all over the place, embracing the world and even its ‘tactics’, at times, rather than preaching the Gospel of God which alone has the power to transform lives. Rom1:16.
“We who preach the Gospel must not think ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not one of compromise but an ultimatum.”
A.W. Tozer, - From man; the dwelling place of God.
Dear Foggyroad, and Dear SWM,
May I just openly say how sweet your kind words have tasted to my soul? I should have said it sooner, but truly, I have been waiting for the Lord's moment, and for the proper words. It takes some time for me to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were, with regards to the emotional effects your kind words have had on my soul.
I know that both of you know how it is with those of us who follow Christ, and that even on our best days, we are plagued by the presence of our old nature. It is to my shame that when I hear a high compliment from good folks like you, many little devils and imps come flitting about my head, saying things that Christ would not abide. You both well know how Pride loveth a large stage, and an applauding audience. You both well know how Vanity cryeth out, "See how gifted I am!" You both well know how sinful flesh is quick to intercept the praise that belongs to God alone, and appropriate it unto itself, and run to the mirror to say, "What a handsome man thou art!" And this IS the nature of how I struggle when I find myself the recipient of your 'fresh apples and ripe grapes'.
Nevertheless, it is with all humility and a glad heart, that I thank you, now, for the blessing that has fallen into my lap, by you, through the pleasant words you have spoken in my direction. They are, to me, like a honeycomb; they are sweet to my soul; they are health to my bones! I am in your debt for the encouragement, and for the joy, that my heart now possesses. As in the words of an old hymn, "Blest be the Tie that binds...our hearts in Christian love..", I say that to you now. I also echo Paul's emotion, "When I think of you, I thank God." May your strength, my friends, be as your day.
And, Jesus, we ask Your presence here, with us and in us, as we are more than two, and we are gathered in Your Name. A-men.
NWD,...who is desirous to see his sheep-mate IRB.
The constant pressure of Islam was becoming an increas-
ing danger for Europe, and Hungary was in the forefront of the fight; yet
this did not awaken the Catholic countries to see the folly of destroying a
barrier between them and their most dangerous foe, and the Pope wrote
(1325) to the Ban of Bosnia: “Knowing that thou art a faithful son of
the Church, we therefore charge thee to exterminate the heretics in thy
dominions, and to render aid and assistance unto Fabian, our Inquisitor,
forasmuch as a large multitude of heretics from many and divers parts
collected, have flowed together into the Principality of Bosnia, trusting
there to sow their obscene errors and to dwell there in safety. These men,
imbued with the cunning of the Old Fiend, and armed with the venom
of their falseness, corrupt the minds of Catholics by outward show of
simplicity and lying assumption of the name of Christians; their speech
crawleth like a crab, and they creep in with humility, but in secret they
kill, and are wolves in sheep’s clothing, ...........
That was a long ago Pope's view and what he would do to correct the problem. Today we see a different solution with the current pope. The coming together of both groups under one banner, the forming of a one world religious system to include all the "daughters" of their kingdom. jmo
Revelation 3:18King James Version (KJV)
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Isaiah 55:1Amplified Bible (AMP)
55 Wait and listen, everyone who is thirsty! Come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Yes, come, buy [priceless, spiritual] wine and milk without money and without price [simply for the self-surrender that accepts the blessing].
Matthew 13:44Amplified Bible (AMP)
44 The kingdom of heaven is like [a]something precious buried in a field, which a man found and hid again; then in his joy he goes and sells all he has and buys that field.
1 Peter 1:7Amplified Bible (AMP)
7 So that [the genuineness] of your faith may be tested, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is revealed.
THE struggle between Christendom and Islam swayed to and fro on
its long battle-front. But whenever the Papal party prevailed, persecution
in Bosnia began afresh, so that (1450) some 40,000 Bogomils, with their
leaders, crossed the frontier into Herzegovina, where the Prince Stefan
Vuktchitch protected them. The capture of Constantinople in 1453 by
Mohammed II, which led to the speedy subjection of Greece, Albania and
Serbia under the hands of the Turks, did not cause the negotiations and
intrigues for the conversion of the Bosnian Bogomils to cease. Sometimes
their rulers were won over to Rome, but the people never. Therefore, as
the end drew near, we find Bosnian kings appealing to the Pope for help
against the Turks, which was only given on condition of fresh persecution
of the Bogomils, till at last (1463) when the Turks, who had been driven
back for a time, advanced again on Bosnia, the people refused their king
any aid, and preferring the Turk to the Inquisition, made no resistance to
the invader, with the result that within a week the Sultan took possession
of seventy towns and fortresses, in a country naturally strong for defence,
and Bosnia passed permanently into Moslem hands, to stagnate for four
centuries under a deadening system destructive of life and progress.
This war, this invasion of all mankind upon our planet, will never stop until we see Him coming again.
What value is there in being older? What value is there in being out in the field, in many nations? What value is there in seeing the work of the ministry by the many and all with differing approaches and understandings? What value is there in studying Church History? What value is there in studying the works of the reformers? What value is there in reading the books of those like J.N. Darby, William Penn, Watchman Nee, A.W. Tozer, T.A. Sparks, William Gurnall, George Fox, and the many true reformers from the days of the early Church? Well, a man begins to build/construct an internal "bugout bag".
The bags today that are being formed are physical. We have a knife, gold and silver, dried foods, a lighter, canned ham, a tent and toilet paper. These items may work for a week in some nations but will have zero value when we begin to see the hoards of demon possessed individuals roaming the streets and countryside. I have long been concerned that we will be surrounded with the offspring of the "seven sons of Sceva", (Acts 19: 11-20), when we need to be with those who have been filled with the very Life of Christ within. Throwing out a man made bugout bag in those days will be useless.
Story time: I was teaching about deliverance ministry in a local House Church a few years ago. When we were finished, the meeting was over and everyone when outdoors to fellowship, except one adult/married woman. She just sat there, near me and I received an internal word of her condition. I asked for help and quickly because she jumped on me. We were rolling on the floor and she was trying to kill me. It took several of us to pin her down and cast out the demons. I asked her later as to what the demons had said to her. She said "They told me to kill you while the people were outside".
Let me just say that it is time to get involved with what the Lord is doing and get off the pew. This is not a spectator sport where we cheer for those on the field or those up front on the raised platforms. There is great value to be gained when we understand what has happened to the Church, how the enemy has perched in the branches of all its trees and has left the saints unprepared for a world that will be totally invaded by these forces.
Will we be spoken to as the seven sons were: and the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you"? That is the problem today in the S.H.'s. We have millions who are good people who will never be able to stand in that evil day.
Some days I am tempted to cut loose and really warn the Church but that day has not arrive, yet! The only True "bugout bag" is "Christ within", Him as our Life, being seated in Heavenly places with Him, and Him giving us instruction/direction in the last days via His Spirit. Jim
About that demon possessed woman who said "They told me to kill you while the people were outside", please get her to an emergency room.
From my medical view, such words would immediately qualify her for a psychiatric emergency visit/hold.
Those types of patients are not just demon possessed. They have acute psychosis and should be evaluated by a physician.
Those patients pose a threat to yourself, the people around her, and the entire community until she is diagnosed, treated, and improves. All are possible with good medical care.
and, now, I return to my Ebola thread.
She was treated while on the floor, the problem removed and the medical community does not have the understanding of her true problem . Thanks for your view.
It has been about 20 years ago, she now has four children and I am still alive.
In good conscience I can say that I have completed my reading of Chapter 3. Just because something is new to me, it does not necessarily follow that there is anything 'new under the sun'! I hope there are some others who are still reading along.
As of Today, I can see more clearly the necessity, and the importance, of attempting to regain, and retain, a 'view' of the Church that echoes the teachings of Christ, His Apostles, and the testimony of Scripture. But this is an ages-old fight which is clearly propounded in the pages of "The Pilgrim Church". There is much spiritual food to be had here, in the form of history, and the recollection of it. As we see (through spiritual eyes) the flag of ISIS raised above our own White House, it should cause us to wonder; it should cause us to pray; it should cause us to tremble at the judgment that is upon us!
O, the national pride, so thick and so onerous, that hangs about our heads and needs to be repented of; O, the personal pride that thinks modernity can teach Christ a new lesson, or counsel the Everlasting on his errors! O, what a stench this must be to the nostrils (if I may say it) of God!
We are caught up in an invisible war of Biblical proportions, and only a few are able to discern it. Our help, our hope, our 'salvation' can only come from the One whose name is..I AM. Apart from that, we build upon the sand, and our house shall fall into the sea, where it will be remembered no more, except that some historian would write about the Great Fall of it.
Come, Brethren, let us once again "Kiss the Son" as we remember our ill-treated forebears in the Faith, and look ahead to that which is ugly beyond measure, and which rapidly approaches. Will I, will we, "Take up our cross and follow Him"? It is my prayer that we will (and already have), and that our steps will be quick (and already are) to follow His..who overcame the world, and sin, and death.
As Rutherford might say, 'I bid you to help me to praise.'
Be of good cheer........NWD
Re: Bugout Bags....I appreciate this entire comment a whole bunch! My thinking has been along the same lines. I had thought I might ask your opinion in PM, but it appears you have been reading my mind. Love ya', man.
Dale, this is some powerful insight that you have for a man that spent some time as a prodigal. We all know that Christians are told to read their bibles often and they also know that the Book of Acts has never been completed. These acts are still happening today. So, how many times do we have to re-read that book before we realize that the Church age did not stop on Acts 28:31? That is where the modern believers have set up camp, then have gone back to Chapter 1 all over again. Books like the Pilgrim Church and Millers's Church History, continue the messages given by the Lord. Yes those two books are not the scripture but the acts of the true believers are contained upon many pages as the Church has been blinded to those events.
Oh yes, we have been blinded to much, given a modern view of being a disciple, and a placebo instead of the meat of the Word.
I often think about John 5:39-40: "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have Life". You know, everyone tells me that they belong to a "bible based, bible believing church (SH)". The book of Acts continue onward and Mark Chapter 16 has stood as a witness against us. This is part of the call to the Church. Those who have not embraced this calling, will be left with drawing the short straw in that day.
Yes Dale, there is a purpose in studying what happened after Chapter 28 of Acts and all events from then onward are still being recorded. Let us walk with that cloud of witnesses that started long ago.
For those stuck on a dead pew and needing relief, P.M. Dale.
Page 65. "THE MYSTERY OF THE TRINITY'
" Afrahat condemns the teachings of Marcion
and of Mani; he points out that there are many things which we are not
able to understand, acknowledges the mystery of the Trinity but depre-
cates curious questions, saying: “Above the heavens, what is there–who
doth suffice to tell? Beneath the earth, what is laid? There is none to say!
The firmament–upon what is it stretched out, or the heavens–upon what
are they hung? The earth–on what is it pillowed, or the deep–in what is
it fixed? We are of Adam, and here, with our senses, we perceive little.
Only this we know: that God is One, and His Messiah One, and One the
Spirit, and one the Faith and one Baptism. More than this far it doth not
help us to speak; and if we say more we fall short, and if we investigate
we are helpless."
There is some wisdom in the above view of old. I remember, during the '80's , that there were some high powered preachers that were making the entire emphasis on the definition of the Trinity. This has become a definition that is extremely divisive. Once a high profile preacher/teacher pens his view, it is in concrete and anyone who sees it a bit differently is now a CULT and to be avoided. This has always bothered me. Some have asked for a view of Trinity.
If one looks for the definition directly from the scripture, they will have some trouble. Here we are, trying to define a Triune God who we have never seen. He that holds the Keys of the Kingdom. He that says He is the I AM. How many even understand that about our Lord? He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. We see the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as separate and at the same time united.
Few have seen or understood Isaiah 9:6; "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" Did we just see that? That the Name of the Lord Jesus , His name, is also "everlasting Father". Ponder that for a season.
Well, I have come to the place long ago that I figured out that I am just not smart enough to fully define "Trinity". I just say to the Lord, "Jesus, I know you are the great I AM and not the Great I Have. You are the sum of all Spiritual needs for me and mankind, forever. When I see you, face to face, I will have a better understanding of Trinity, but for now, I will not divide the Church over my lack of knowledge."
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
...being understood by the things that are made,
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
- - -
God made you
How many 'You's are you? "1". You are one you.
Do you have a (1)Body? ...that which is manifest and by which you can share and receive thoughts and your love for and with others? yes
Do you have a (2)Spirit? ...a mind that thinks thoughts and understands things? yes
Do you have a (3) Soul? ...are you alive, do you have life, ...an emotional state, "feelings"? yes
These 3 entities are distinctly separate, but "You" are just one "You"! ...and so it is with God.
Your Father (3) Loves you!
His Holy Spirit (2) Teaches you... touches your mind and gives you understanding!
His Word (1) is that manifestation of God which we can read with our body's eyes, or when the Word dwelt among us, could have heard speak with our body's ears. (direct manifestation to manifestation contact)
- - - -
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things (2 and 3) of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
There were many other ordinances, as, that the clergy should be celi-
bate and not married as before; that bishops unable to be present on
account of distance should be bound by what had been agreed upon;
while some bishops, who from the beginning had opposed Isaak, were
condemned as rebels. Meetings in private houses were forbidden the
boundaries of parishes were fixed, and only one church was to be per-
mitted in each.
The early Church did not have temples or S.H.'s of any kind, they met "from house to house" and many do likewise today. We have been meeting from house to house for about 25 years. It is where two or three are gathered in His Name that the Church is present.
There is an excellent book called "House Church" and a copy can be obtained at NTRF.org. This is a great guide to meeting the way it was in the beginning. These people are based in the Atlanta area and I visited them one time . They will even send you a free copy, just tell them that Jim will pay for it from Olympia.
All I can do is groan, and sigh, and groan some more as I sit in the comfort of my home. I know it sounds trite, but let us count our blessings while we 'count the cost' of following Christ.
Andreas Rivetus (1650):
A man of learning, and much reverenced in the Dutch nation, after a long life of study in search of divine knowledge, upon his death-bed, being discoursed by his friend of heavenly things, brake forth in this manner: "God has learned me more of Himself in then days' sickness, than I could get by all my labour and studies." So near a way, so short a cut it is to the knowledge of God, when people come into the right way, which is to turn, in their minds and hearts, to the voice of God, and learn of Him, who is a Spirit, to be taught of Him, and led by Him: For in righteousness such shall be established, and great shall be their peace.
NWD, I read the above post and link. What a heartache. It is really a continuation of the events of our book, the Pilgrim Church. Nothing has changed. These current events have been happening from the beginning and will continue until we see His Face before us. Many are going to see this tribulation spread across the nations like locus. Some will be prepared, some will have a quick work like Andreas but the majority will seek out the rocks and caves along the mountain slopes without hope.
The day will come wherein all will dream about having the time to sit at the picnic table and being prepared to stand before Him. The chickens of the world, mixed with the luke warm Church, have come home to roost. We have built on a solid foundation with wood, hay and stubble. We have killed the prophets sent by the Lord, we have destroyed the called out Saints by the millions throughout history, and bit on the apple of cheap Grace. Now we wonder "where is our Lord when we need Him?" He is coming! MARANATHA, MARANATHA, MARANATHA!
I was asked by a local SH pastor to do a camp for them. It was a great time. The subject came up about marriage, divorce and remarriage. I gave my views and I asked the pastor what his system taught. He said in the beginning, they would not marry anyone who had been divorced. Later they would only remarry the party that was not at fault ( he said the one who stayed in their SH), and now he said that they will marry, remarry, anyone.
I met a high profile pastor while overseas long ago and we became friends. He had the big meetings and he was on their national T.V. broadcasts. He called me one day and said, "Jim. I am calling for your advise. I am having an affair with my best friend wife in my church where I am the senior pastor. The board has just found out about it and I think there may be problems. What do you think I should do?"
That is not a question that he is going to enjoy an answer to. I said "have you ever heard of adultery? Here you are, the so-called leader of an assembly, you are married with children and your sins are exposed. You need to repent of these sins, resign your post that you should have never been in, ask your wife for forgiveness, and do whatever possible to heal the wounds between you and your friends". He said, Jim, I do not like your advise and you will not win many friends in the church if you have that kind of an attitude.
Well he is still in his position in a different area, still a speaker for Christian meetings and never wanted to speak to me again. This is just the beginning of the many woes of the divided systems. We have allowed the enemy to infiltrate the fellowships from the early Church and now instead of being "overcomers", we have been overcome.
This is one of those important discussions that all must have in His timing. If IRB and NWD along with SWM, ever have our picnic, we will talk for hours over these issues that have been blinded in the Church.
Do you not know, brethren—for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law—that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive?
2 For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband.
3 Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress. Romans 7
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?)
(Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?)
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Well it may be the correct time for me to concentrate more on the "local Church" than the book club. I want to encourage any lurkers to continue to study the past and gain much as to the future of the Church. I will be around for anything that is needed via P.M.'s and here also as any may want to talk. Jim