CHAPTER #3 PAGE 43
* * * * *
Veneration of relics began at an early stage of the Church’s history.
Helena, the mother of Constantine the Great, brought from Jerusalem
wood supposed to be part of the cross, and nails which she believed had
been used at the crucifixion.
Pictures, images, and ikons began to be valued. Churches were built
to receive relics or to commemorate the death of martyrs. Insensibly
the meetings of the disciples of the Lord, in simple houses and rooms,
changed to the gathering of all, willing or unwilling, believers or not,
in consecrated buildings dedicated to the Virgin or one of the saints,
filled with images, pictures, and relics, which became objects of worship.
Prayer was diverted from God to the Virgin and the saints, and the
idolatry of Paganism was reproduced in the gross superstitions that grew
up around the images, the priests, and the forms of religion. It is a
mark of the power of the revelation of Christ contained in the Scriptures,
that even when Pagan idolatry and superstition had succeeded in gaining
possession of the Catholic churches, there were to be found in them,
then as now, great numbers of believers, whose hope of salvation was
in Christ and whose lives were pious and godly. They, however, were
a remnant, hidden in the mass of those who had been misled into the
system of idolatry with its accompanying sin and ignorance, and their
protests were raised in vain.
Well Helena understood how to raise some serious fiat by traveling to Jerusalem, hundreds of years after the Lord walked the streets, and dig up any and all valuable items connected to Christ and His True Church. It is said that if you gathered all the wood that was sold from the original Cross, it would take a forest's supply.
We have gone into homes many times to visit new Christians, who have come out of their S.H. system and we have gathered full trash cans of idols to be burned. It is truly amazing to view the idolatry that is still here from the days after the early Church. It usually takes deliverance to overcome the full force of the great sin against God. amen
Andrew Murray - The Holiest of All - page 476:
The history of Israel, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God, is a real type and figure of the life of Christ in the soul. In the illustrations taken from the beginning of that history, we have some of the chief steps of the Christian life strikingly illustrated. By faith Moses, with Israel, left Egypt, "not fearing the wrath of the king" who would pursue them. That is ever the first step --- coming out; being separate; parting with sin; bidding farewell to Egypt, the land of our birth; and not fearing the wrath of Satan or the world. It is by nothing but faith that this can be done, definitely and perseveringly. But faith can enable us to do it, as it did Moses. "For he endured, as seeing Him who is invisible". Here is the mighty power of faith: It sees what others cannot see. It sees, amid the thousands things others see and are guided by, something infinitely greater - it sees God. No wonder it leads a man to act differently from other men. On everything it looks at, the bright light of eternity, of God, is shining. No wonder that, under the inspiration of that vision, it can do mighty deeds, for it sees God its Helper and Strength.
Let me here say to every believer that just as, in any pursuit, the eye by practice can be trained to see what others cannot see, so the eye of faith can be trained to see God everywhere. Abide in His presence until the heart is filled with it. Recognize Him in everything that happen. Seek to walk in the light of His countenance. Seeing the invisible will make it easy to forsake the world and to do the will of God.
It was not long ago, in a land called the Church Age, in a corner of it named TFMetals, that the One whose name is 'Wonderful', called together three of his choicest men. These men were all shepherds, and had been for some time. A summons from 'Wonderful' was always a delight to their ears, and an invitation to his house was an invitation they had no power to resist. When they would gather at 'Wonderful''s house, they had a habit of greeting Him with a holy kiss, and addressing Him as Our Good and Chief Shepherd. They did this out of love for the truth, but more, out of love for His-self.
On this morning, the Good Shepherd informed them that He had counted the heads of His sheep, and that two (perhaps there were more but I can only say 'two') were not within the safety of the fold. He gave the 'under-shepherds' instructions as to where these two were, which two they were, and how they were to be recovered. He warned them that these two were more pig-headed than most sheep are, and that they would find one of them nearly dead, and the other one, in spite of his dire condition, looking for a fight. He warned them that their task might seem, at times, a thankless one, but He also encouraged them to trust Him. They replied, in unison, "We trust You. Send us!"
The Good Shepherd instructed them go to the farthest edge of TFMetals, where the Valley of Death is. Pitch your tents there, on the three out-croppings of Rock that overshadow the Valley. My two lost sheep are there, at the bottom of the cliffs, dying. There is but one trail out of the Valley, and it has fallen to you three to woo them onto the path, and out of their misery.
He said to Foggyroad, "Take my Word with you, and pitch your tent on the Rock called 'Socks and Underwear'. From there, cry out...and don't lose heart."
He said to JeremiahJr, "Take my Word with you, and pitch your tent on the Rock called 'Zionism'. From there, cry out...and don't lose heart."
He said to NW View, "Take my Word with you, and pitch your tent on the Rock called 'Thread of Faith'. From there, cry out...and don't lose heart."
So, the three set out on their way to the edge of the Valley of Death, and pitched their tents where they had been instructed to do. And, tho' they were three, they cried out as one; and they did not lose heart, even when their eyes beheld the sight of the two lost sheep, far away, on the Valley's floor. It was as the Lord had told them: One was nigh unto death, and the other was looking for a fight...and they were the exact same two that the One, named Wonderful, had said they would find there, in the Valley of Death.
Now, down in the bottom of the Valley of Death, the words of the men crying out from the cliff-tops, began to settle on the ears of the two lost sheep.
The one that was nigh unto death was covered in his own filth, for he had lain in the same spot too long. Flies, and the stench of rotting flesh, permeated the air around him. It was all he could do to open one muck-covered eye in a feeble attempt to see where the words were emanating from. But weakness prevented a clear view of the cliff-tops, so he cast a glance toward the place where the other lost sheep was; then laid his head back down to die.
The other lost sheep was not so foul as the one nearly dead. He still retained his strength, and the words from the cliff-tops seemed more to him a challenge, than a song. He desired to be out of the Valley of Death, but he seemed more desirous that the men would come down to the valley floor, and engage him there, where he could run circles around them, and tire them out. Whether that was truly the case, I know not. But there remained, for them, no hope of rescue, for the one was far too weak, and the other was far too strong; and another cold night on the valley floor was all the food they had to eat.
It appears that something happened during the night, because when the sun rose on the 'morrow, the strong one lay alongside the weak one, and he was, in spite of the flies and the stench, licking the muck off the eyes of the other. The near-dead one took much comfort from this, and for the first time in a long time, desired to be up on his feet again, and not to die in the Valley of Death. And the other sheep, also, was possessed with the same aching and yearning.
Now, when the words from the cliff-tops descended again to the valley floor, and settled on the ears of the two lost sheep, they both began to stir, and to move. The voices from above led them on, and after much walking over several miles, they came, at long last, to the foot of the trail that led from the valley floor to the heights above. It was here that the weak one, looking up the trail out of his once muck-covered eyes, deemed the journey too arduous and too far, so he laid down again, and looked a sad look at his sheep-mate. They both rested there for about an hour.
When the sweet sounds of the words emanating from the Rocks above began again, only the strong sheep took to his feet. He still had a lot of fight left in him, but it was of a different sort; it was that type of fight which only interests itself in the Good Fight of Faith. Therefore, he took renewed interest in his fallen friend, and determined within himself (as sheep often do) that if both of them could not make the trek up the trail out of the Valley, then both of them would die there trying. So he nudged and prodded the weak one until the weak one got up; then he got behind him, and began head-butting him up the trail. After several hours and much struggle, the two of them arrived, together, at the top of the cliff, at the edge of the Valley of Death, where they found green pasture, and a Rock from which water flowed! They also saw, at their first coming to this place, the three men who had been crying out to them; who had obeyed Wonderful's command, and who hadn't lost heart.
It was a very happy scene, and as they all, shepherds and sheep alike, turned from where they had been and began their journey back to the sheep-fold where Christ tends the needs and counts the heads of His flock, they said among themselves that, from now on, in honor of the One who had sent them there, they will refer to this place as the Valley of the Shadow of Death, for none of the Good Shepherd's called-out ones will ever perish there. The three men looked one another in the eye, and in heartfelt agreement, whispered..A-men.
Now that is a wonderful story. Those calling from high on the rocks really do not know if any sheep are listening. There is little understanding as to what the lost sheep have been eating and drinking and who has been supplying the tainted food. When the two lost sheep arrive at the top of the valley, they blend in exactly with the three sheep who were calling because we are just all "the sheep of His Pasture".
I think I just saw NWD and Foggy heading over to the edge of the valley to begin "their calling" all over again.
The Armenian book entitled “The Key of Truth", mentioned above
as having been written between the seventh and ninth centuries, de-
scribes the beliefs and practices of those called Paulicians, of Thonrak,
at that time; and although there were doubtless many differences in the
numerous scattered churches, yet this authentic account given by one of
themselves, is applicable to most of them.
The author is unknown, but writes with power and eloquence as well
as with deep feeling and earnestness. He writes to give to the new born
children of the Universal and Apostolic Church of our Lord Jesus Christ
the holy milk whereby they may be nourished in the faith. Our Lord, he
says, asks first for repentance and faith and then gives baptism, so we
must follow Him and not do after the deceitful arguments of others, who
baptise the unbelieving, the reasonless, and the unrepentant.
When a child is born the elders of the church should give counsel
to the parents that they may train the child in godliness and faith. This
should be accompanied by prayer, the reading of the Scriptures, and giv-
ing the child a name. When anyone is baptised it should be at his or her
earnest request. Baptism should be in rivers, or other water in the open
air. The one to be baptised should, on his knees in the midst of the wa-
ter, confess his faith before the congregation present, with great love and
tears. The one who baptises should be of blameless character. Prayer and
the reading of Scripture should accompany the act. Again, the ordaining
of an elder requires great care lest anyone unworthy be chosen. It must
be ascertained whether he has perfect wisdom, love, which is chief of all,
prudence, gentleness, humility justice, courage, sobriety, eloquence. In
laying hands on him, which is to be done with prayer and the reading
of suitable Scriptures, he is to be asked, “Art thou then able to drink the
cup which I am about to drink, or to be baptised with the baptism with
which I am about to be baptised?" The answer required of him shows the
dangers and responsibilities that such men accepted, which none would
take on themselves unless there were an earnest love and a will to suffer
to the uttermost in the following of Christ and caring for His flock.
It seems that we have long ago lost this view of the early Church. Can the flock be "reformed"? Well when we have that picnic and the baptism in the river, we will see if we have returned to the concepts of the early ones.
Jude 1 Amplified Bible (AMP)
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and brother of James, [writes this letter] to those who are called (chosen), dearly loved by God the Father and separated (set apart) and kept for Jesus Christ:
2 May mercy, [soul] peace, and love be multiplied to you.
3 Beloved, my whole concern was to write to you in regard to our common salvation. [But] I found it necessary and was impelled to write you and urgently appeal to and exhort [you] to contend for the faith which was once for all [a]handed down to the saints [the faith which is that sum of Christian belief which was delivered [b]verbally to the holy people of God].
4 For certain men have crept in stealthily [[c]gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
5 Now I want to remind you, though you were fully informed once for all, that though the Lord [at one time] delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, He subsequently destroyed those [of them] who did not believe [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him].
6 And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place—these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day.
7 [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns—which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity—are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire.
8 Nevertheless in like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body, scorn and reject authority and government, and revile and libel and scoff at [heavenly] glories (the glorious ones).
9 But when [even] the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, judicially argued (disputed) about the body of Moses, he dared not [presume to] bring an abusive condemnation against him, but [simply] said, The Lord rebuke you!
10 But these men revile (scoff and sneer at) anything they do not happen to be acquainted with and do not understand; and whatever they do understand physically [that which they know by mere instinct], like irrational beasts—by these they corrupt themselves and are destroyed (perish).
11 Woe to them! For they have run riotously in the way of Cain, and have abandoned themselves for the sake of gain [it offers them, following] the error of Balaam, and have perished in rebellion [like that] of Korah!
12 These are hidden reefs (elements of danger) in your love feasts, where they boldly feast sumptuously [carousing together in your midst], without scruples providing for themselves [alone]. They are clouds without water, swept along by the winds; trees, without fruit at the late autumn gathering time—twice (doubly) dead, [lifeless and] plucked up by the roots;
13 Wild waves of the sea, flinging up the foam of their own shame and disgrace; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of eternal darkness has been reserved forever.
14 It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)
15 To execute judgment upon all and to convict all the impious (unholy ones) of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed [in such an] ungodly [way], and of all the severe (abusive, jarring) things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
16 These are inveterate murmurers (grumblers) who complain [of their lot in life], going after their own desires [controlled by their passions]; their talk is boastful and arrogant, [and they claim to] admire men’s persons and pay people flattering compliments to gain advantage.
17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions which were made by the apostles (the special messengers) of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
18 They told you beforehand, In the last days (in the end time) there will be scoffers [who seek to gratify their own unholy desires], following after their own ungodly passions.
19 It is these who are [agitators] setting up distinctions and causing divisions—merely sensual [creatures, carnal, worldly-minded people], devoid of the [Holy] Spirit and destitute of any higher spiritual life.
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [[d]make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit;
21 Guard and keep yourselves in the love of God; expect and patiently wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)—[which will bring you] unto life eternal.
22 And refute [so as to] convict some who dispute with you, and on some have mercy who waver and doubt.
23 [Strive to] save others, snatching [them] out of [the] fire; on others take pity [but] with fear, loathing even the garment spotted by the flesh and polluted by their sensuality.
24 Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]—
25 To the one only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory (splendor), majesty, might and dominion, and power and authority, before all time and now and forever (unto all the ages of eternity). Amen (so be it).
Well this is a big subject. The experts all have their views of the reformation and many are scholars, I'm not one of them. I have deep concerns and convictions over the past, present and future of the Church. I have my views and understand that I am in the small minority of the believers but not with the early Church and the scriptures. My intention herein is not to divide, argue or change everyone's mind but to state my long held view of the mess we have as we head into the end times tribulation for the entire world.
What is a "reformer"? Why do we need to be reformed? The early Church did not need to be reformed, they were formed. The Lord gave Paul the understanding of the working of the Church, it is written. There has been from the beginning, those who have followed the path once delivered to the Saints but most have suffered persecution at the hands of the "non-reformed" as it is today (yes today).
Jude said much in the way of a warning for the end times Church and we cannot do any less of that warning. He said "to contend for the faith which was once for all handed down to the Saints". Yes that means to go back and re-read "that which was written" and to come out of the foolishness of todays teaching/preaching. He said "certain men have crept in stealthily, gaining entrance secretly, who PERVERT! The book club is studying these historic events and the pages are filled to the brim but the practices are still here on Sunday mornings across the nations but not in His Kingdom. He said "That angels who did not keep their first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place"...... Well, we have also abandoned our "first place' the place that was given for the Church to dwell and have taken on the position that the enemy has given as a replacement. He said "In like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body". Well that is the state of things as we sit here on Aug. the 4th.
It may be time for us to openly, bluntly, scripturally, speak what we must do to come back from our current mess and take back our original dwelling place. Will the picnic table be able to listen to a view?
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition".
Sir Isaac Newton
Greater events, but also connected with the question of images, arose
from small beginnings in Arabia. In 571 Mohammed was born in Mecca,
and at his death in 632 the religion of Islam, of which he was the founder
and prophet, had spread over the greater part of Arabia. Islam, or “sub-
mission to the will of God", had as its creed: “There is no God but God
and Mohammed is His Prophet". It utterly repudiated images or pictures
of any kind. Its book, the Koran, contains many confused references to
persons and events spoken of in the Bible. Abraham as the Friend of
God, Moses the Law of God, Jesus the Spirit of God, are all venerated,
but are excelled by Mohammed the Prophet of God.
This religion was mercilessly spread by the sword, and such was
the resistless energy of the new enthusiasm that in less than a hundred
years from the death of Mohammed, the dominion and religion of his
followers stretched from India to Spain. The choice of conversion to
Mohammedanism or death constantly reinforced the armies of Islam,
but untold numbers died rather than deny Christ. In North Africa es-
pecially, where the churches were so numerous and had such traditions
and records of the faith unto death of those who had suffered there dur-
ing the persecution by the Pagan Roman Empire, a great proportion of
the population was blotted out. Mohammedanism was a judgement on
idolatry, whether Pagan or Christian.
The last line should be an eye opener but is not. "Mohammedanism was a judgment on idolatry, whether Pagan or Christian." The RCC have had their wars with Islam, and to this day, Muslims are blowing up the idols of many cult/pagan religions. Is there any surprise that the modern S.H.'s that have set up idols, from the leaders to the statues around the building, to those collected by the leaders and brought home from their trips overseas , have destroyed their stand against Satan? Consider this "judgment" as you stand before all of them.
Story; I was invited as a guest speaker to a home of a so-called Christian leader in Manila, many years ago. I walked into this home and it was filled with guests who wanted to hear. The entire home was filled with all the demonic idols of the entire region. I thought "I should keep my big mouth shut, say a 15 minute something, and get out of Dodge." That sounded really good. But then, that small, quiet inner voice, "are you a coward"? So I started off the meeting by saying something like: HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF IDOLATRY? Well, you know the rest of the story and I was not invited back.
Almost all tell me it is "art" and I tell them , "no it is demonic idols". He that hath ears, let him hear. amen
Dear NW View,
I was blessed with another sleepless night last night. It was my privilege to re-examine this thread. My method was this: Read pg.1, then skip to the first to the 'last page' available. Read pg.5, then skip to the next 'last page' available. Read pg.9, then skip ahead again. I think I was trying to flesh out the 'history' of the relationships that have blossomed (for me) upon this thread. Sometimes, you see, I fear I have truly slipped into madness, for I walk the house believing I have actually come to love men I have never met.
I first stumbled onto a post of yours (using my method) on pg.20. Foggyroad showed up a little later, as did I Run Bartertown who was, I might add, viciously attacked upon his first appearance here. My heart was broken for IRB, more than a little. Further on, he was treated much kinder, and I rejoiced that that incident was not a stumbling block to him, and that it didn't prevent him from reaching heaven's Gate. And I rejoiced to think that, when Christ 'hath thy name graven on his Hand' even the gates of hell cannot thwart a man's coming to Him. In truth, the man himself cannot prevent it. A-men!
From pg.20 on, I read much, and heard much, that encouraged and instructed my soul. Today, I must confess, that one of two things has happened: Either the madness has fed upon itself and strengthened..or..My love for those who have helped me here has deepened. I prefer to believe the latter.
When love is in it's growing, respect and admiration flourish alongside, and I think it no sin when these things desire, perhaps even demand, expression. Therefore, NW View, I say these things to thee openly:
In Christ, I bless the day I met you. When I first came to 'Thread of Faith', I thought you might be an obnoxious man, for no one ever seemed to join you here, and it seemed like yours might be a discordant voice, or one that was repugnant to them who desired to travel the same Thread. I have, since then, been brought low by your example of faithfulness, industriousness, and love for Christ's church.
Much of what you have faithfully expounded here, on these pages, has been allowed to settle onto my ears and, then, into my heart. And, as I have thought about your preaching on 'our citizenship being in heaven', many of my entanglements with this world have fallen away, and seem to be dying. I no longer care about the price of silver and gold; I am no longer obsessed with presidents and politics; conspiracy theories no longer weigh me down, or cause me fear, or interest me much. Even sin, it appears, has received a death-blow,and sits silently at arm's-length. And, although I do still appear pretty tawdry to the eyes of men, I sense a great improvement in my soul. I sense it is Christ himself who speaketh to me, through you.
What you bring to us here is meat, and not milk, and it is difficult for a 'soft' stomach to keep solid food down. Be that as it may, we must have the solid food, for the babe does not have arms long enough, or strong enough, to lay hold of his inheritance, let alone the wisdom to wrestle the thing to the ground, and to make it his own. You have helped me greatly in this regard. Your voice, to me, is as that of one crying in the wilderness, and I will always call you, "Friend".
As Rutherford would say, 'I bid you to help me to praise.'
"Lord Jesus, our Everlasting Father...May I, may we, never lose again, the hard-fought ground we have gained. May every step bring us nearer to Thee. We are love-sick to see Thy face...We long to be with Thee where Thou art. We thank Thee for the gift of faith, and for our companions who have met us on the Way. Thou art the Potter; we are the clay. We bless your Holy Name." A-men.
I put my life in my Dada's hands, everyday, sometimes, I don't pray, most of the times I curse. I walk the line.
All of you brothers and sisters, I don't have time to read all the chapters, why would I when I'm trying to feed my family?
You know the word became flesh. The word could be fish or bird or dinosaur. Or your lover.
And then your word became your daughter or son.
And she became a farmer.
Part of my musical education was and is this musician...
I'm not Christian, Jew, Moslem, etc,
I am a Turd.
Well that post makes me teary eyed and speechless. I often feel like a man who was able to jump off of a sinking ship out in the Pacific, swim for a week, and crawl out on a fruitful island. The place is wonderful, food and water, shelter but not even a footprint in the sand for company. One day, I found an old bottle and wrote a message to place within before throwing it into the sea. "Hello, my name is Jim. I was saved from the burning ship before it sank. I have found a land of promise filled with milk and honey. I have placed a tall flag on the highest peak in the hope you will see it and also swim here to be saved and taken care of forever. I do not need to be rescued, do not send a ship, I am here to stay."
Then one day, I saw two men floating on an old log, coming to shore. I said "Hello, my friends, did you find my bottle"? They said that they were travelers named IRB and NWD and have come to this shore to live forever.
Thank You Lord Jesus, some have joined me in this Land of the Kingdom.
I am amazed by your posts. Not only are you extremely talented with words and expressing your thoughts but I appreciate the depth of your understanding.
I have been silent and have not commented on the posts and it seems you have explained my reason for this silence. I have been reading NW View and his posts have given me much to think about. When you said, "What you bring to us here is meat, and not milk, and it is difficult for a 'soft' stomach to keep solid food down." You expressed my thoughts exactly. There is so much to think about. For example, "the subject of our citizenship being in heaven"-
"And, as I have thought about your preaching on 'our citizenship being in heaven', many of my entanglements with this world have fallen away, and seem to be dying. I no longer care about the price of silver and gold; I am no longer obsessed with presidents and politics; conspiracy theories no longer weigh me down, or cause me fear, or interest me much. Even sin, it appears, has received a death-blow,and sits silently at arm's-length."
I think that there is so much more that could be said about this and what it means to have our citizenship in heaven.
NW View I would be very interested in what you have to say exactly about our citizenship.
Thanks for the great posts. It is almost time to leave for work but here is a starting place:
This instruction from Paul is mostly overlooked by the Church. The entire world is caught up in 1st. Adam and that is all that they can "see". However, for those who have received Christ within, our citizenship has been transferred, moved, changed, altered.
It is like my previous post on swimming to a new Kingdom island. We had a campfire along the beach and were sitting at the picnic table. We were talking one day and SWM said "well, I do not even think about the president nor wonder what congress is voting for. I have finally seen that here, our citizenship has changed. We have been placed here by the Lord Himself, allowed to and made to sit with Him. The view from here is quire different from my past. I do not worry about the problems of the nations of the world."
NWD said, "I also have been set free. Here on our island, there are no laws, no artificial governments, no majority rule, zero voting, and there is not one person carrying a sign to protest anything. I am not concerned who will win an election or what party will rule. If someone would ask me who will win the elections in Peru this year, I would say that I do not know and I am not a citizen of Peru nor anywhere else, just here in God's Kingdom".
Foggyroad jumped into the discussion. "It gives me a load of grief to hear over the airwaves from believers who have not found this island, as to their involvement in the affairs of the world. We have been told to stay out of these things and to stay in our positions that the Lord has provided for us, this island where Life is abundant.'
NWD said "when I finally received the revelation from the Lord via His Spirit, my life changed forever. I was finally set free and he who the Son sets free is free indeed. There is not one ounce of freedom for any person who is still living in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but the Tree of Life is in our midst. My view of the problems facing mankind has moved from TBN,CBS,NBC and even the net to facing the foot of the Cross every day and being thankful for this Great salvation that I have received."
IRB said "I will no longer allow anyone who rows a boat past our shores to trick me into throwing stones nor will they get me to travel with them back into their lands. Could someone pass the ribs and potato salad?" amen
What a beautiful story NWD, the Lord's Holy Spirit has touched your heart, Praise the Most High.
The Din of Angels Joyous Song fills the heavenly Sanctuary, what Love is our Glorious Father, he sits and smiles at the Son of God, as Jesus strides toward Him with a little lamb, once lost but now found.
Blessings to you Brother Dale, now share your precious gift, and grow in the Love of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
My heart weeps with extreme Joy, at your loving words.
Praise the Lord, as the Angels sing.
Thank You, and Bless You Brother Dale.
Your Friend Foggy.
So, NW VIEW forgive me I have a few questions. While putting this new citizenship into everyday living I come against questions from friends and even family members. Here are a few:
1. As Christians aren't we supposed to do good and elect Godly people into office.
2. We have to live in this world, isn't it our job to make it a better place?
3. If you stay out of politics aren't you helping evil to stay in power?
More detail please of being "In the World but not of the world"?
Well SWM, this is one of the topics that will make one feel he has been placed on a board over a watery swimming pool, waiting for the many stones to be thrown to dunk me. However, I have been wet before:
2 Timothy 2 Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 So you, my son, be strong (strengthened inwardly) in the grace (spiritual blessing) that is [to be found only] in Christ Jesus.
2 And the [instructions] which you have heard from me along with many witnesses, transmit and entrust [as a deposit] to reliable and faithful men who will be competent and qualified to teach others also.
3 Take [with me] your share of the hardships and suffering [which you are called to endure] as a good (first-class) soldier of Christ Jesus.
4 No soldier when in service gets entangled in the enterprises of [civilian] life; his aim is to satisfy and please the one who enlisted him.
5 And if anyone enters competitive games, he is not crowned unless he competes lawfully (fairly, according to the rules laid down).
6 [It is] the hard-working farmer [who labors to produce] who must be the first partaker of the fruits.
7 Think over these things I am saying [understand them and grasp their application], for the Lord will grant you full insight and understanding in everything.
8 Constantly keep in mind Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] risen from the dead, [as the prophesied King] descended from David, according to the good news (the Gospel) that I preach.
9 For that [Gospel] I am suffering affliction and even wearing chains like a criminal. But the Word of God is not chained or imprisoned!
10 Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen], so that they too may obtain [the] salvation which is in Christ Jesus, with [the reward of] eternal glory.
11 The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.
13 If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.
15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.
16 But avoid all empty (vain, useless, idle) talk, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness.
So SWM, you have three questions and most will not appreciate my answers but the Lord is O.K.
(1). As Christians aren't we suppose to do good and elect Godly people into office? >>>> Well, how has that worked out for us? If I were looking from another planet and seeing the results of billions of prayers and billions of dollars being spent, I would say the Christians have failed at the ballot boxes. The winners are from the banksters and Hollywood. What happened to their prayers, did they just drop on the floor?
Story; I remember going to an auction several years ago and seeing an older man that I had ministered with in Europe in the late '70's. He was excited to see me and said "Brother Jim, I have found the answer". I thought he must have rededicated his life to Christ. Nope! He said he was on a committee to elect a new Washington State governor and she was a Christian. He told me they could turn this state around and she was going to win. OH SUCH FOOLISHNESS!
Do we really believe that we can force the population to surrender to the Christian view that we force on them through the voting booth? The problem is that we have failed to be that witness that the Lord has called us to be in a world under judgment. The world sees a divided S.H. system, thousands of them, sin in the camp, every S.H. bible college teaching something different on every scripture and the t.v. preachers with the ratted hair preaching a false gospel of prosperity while they fly their jets to their private runways.
There will be people who read these posts who say that "speaking in tongues is of the devil" and others who will say, that it is "the only sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit". This is the witness of the confused systems to the lost world.
Do we vote and are we registered to vote? Many S.H.'s say it is our civic duty. They even tell you who to vote for, the lesser of two evils some say. A monkey can cast a ballot but it takes a cross center believer to be a witness to the lost.
We see in the O.T. that pharaoh was raised up by our Lord for the purpose of the Lord. It was not because he was a good pharaoh but because the Lord wanted to deliver the children out of the land of sin/Egypt. Do we understand that the Lord brought armies against Israel in the past because of the sin in the camp and the cost was 70 years in slavery? Do we understand that the current White House has been given to the nation as a punishment for the great sins of the land? Do we understand that the current president represents a people of a representative government? HE IS PERFECT FOR THE JOB AHEAD! Will the prayers of the S.H.'s raise up a Billy Graham type for our next president? NO! We will be given what the nation wants and deserves. I am O.K. with the selection because from where I view things on the island, nothing will change for America until "If My people, who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray...................". When will that happen with a divided church? When will the saved ones repent of joining the divided systems? When will the called out ones begin to understand that they are a "Kingdom of Priests unto God" and never have been a layman?
Well, this have been a long post to answer the 1st question and I will answer the next two later.
I know your question was directed to NW VIEW but I would also like to chime in, if you don’t mind.
I agree with much of what NW said, wise council as always.
IMO, Jesus Christ did not come to change what we do, he came to change what we are, because what we are, effects what we do, individually and collectively as a nation and/or in any society.
IMO, we are called to be salt and light to the world, yes, no question about it, do good and make difference where you can, but what the modern church has done is embrace and just become another ‘political group’ with a ‘political agenda’. An agenda of cultural morality; and thereby it tries to create an ‘environment’ where somehow this external supposed ‘righteousness’ will somehow be pushed into people from the outside.
Our ministry and duty as Christians is one of reconciliation…….
A Reconciliation at the heart level…….
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” II Cor 5:17-21.
When we as believers lose focus of this primary objective we drift all over the place, embracing the world and even its ‘tactics’, at times, rather than preaching the Gospel of God which alone has the power to transform lives. Rom1:16
The post moderns are big into this as well as many of the Churches. If the majority of American’s got delivered, saved and brought into the Kingdom, this country would do a 180 degree turn in a matter of weeks. Sadly scripture indicates that will not happen collectively.
In the mean time, we help one person at a time escape this world and its corrupt systems that are going down hard very soon.
In the mean time, do as you are led, but don’t lose focus that we are calling people out of this world and it’s systems, into the Kingdom of God which is a Heavenly Kingdom.
“We who preach the Gospel must not think ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not one of compromise but an ultimatum.”
A.W. Tozer, - From man; the dwelling place of God.