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Sun, Jul 27, 2014 - 2:08pm
NW VIEW
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Sunday morning pondering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZTFeEeeHas

There are so many really good items in Chapter 2 that it is difficult not to write about all of them. But we have many posters in the book club and even more who are silent.

I watched the video by Judge Jeanine and was just going to discount it as "one who just is caught up in the deception". She could gain much if she understood "Church History" and was in the book club. She is trying to appeal to his 'holiness" as if any person on earth is holy. The only way we can find anything Holy in the entire universe is to locate the presence of the Holy One, Jesus. That is why it is written "be ye Holy". When He comes within, then the Holy One is within you. The middle east is currently filled with Polycarps and we sit here wondering if the time of the tribulation is near. ASK THEM. Judge Jeanine is appealing to the foxes and asking them to make a stand against those who rob the hen houses. BLIND GUIDES!

This is where brother Jer. Jr. has his knowledge and he has warned the Church for a long season. The media and the sh's are trapped in the gas chambers of time and calling the Gestapo, asking for a wrench to turn off the valve!

O.K., I must say a few things: Do we remember with the Muslims destroyed those huge old statues, blew them up? The world saw them as art and culture. They saw them as idols and so does the Church. Did we see them blowing up those old Muslim temples recently? That was a good work and when Jesus comes, all of them will be rubble. Did we hear Judge Jeanine cry out over the SH's being destroyed with the icons and all the relics of past generations? Is this a loss or a gain? Much of this is the continual war against the true Church that Constantine and Augustine brought forth in their misguided view of the divided SH. Constantine's buildings are being destroyed.

There just is not a penny's worth of value in the video. One has to have the basic understanding of how the enemy has lodged behind the stain glass windows since chapter number one. We are going to have to talk about buildings, systems, error, tax exempt contributions, (follow the money) and how we get back to "the narrow road that leads to Life and few find it".

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Sun, Jul 27, 2014 - 2:57pm
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THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE M.E.

Video unavailable
NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Sun, Jul 27, 2014 - 9:31pm
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Fresh look at old history

In Chapter 2 of https://thejesusway.info/pdf/PilgrimChurch/PilgrimChurchVer-0200-beta.pdf

On p. 21 -

"Very soon the clergy were competing for lucrative positions and

for power as shamelessly as the court officials, while, in congregations

where a godless element predominated, the material advantages of a

profession of Christianity changed the purity of the persecuted churches

into worldliness. The Church was thus powerless to stem the downward

course of the civilised world into corruption.

Ominous clouds, threatening judgment, were gathering. In distant

China movements of the population, setting westward, led to a great

migration of the Huns, who crossed the Volga, and, pressing upon the

Goths in what is now Russia, forced them on to the frontiers of the Em-

pire, which was by this time divided; the Eastern part, or Byzantine Em-

pire, having Constantinople as its capital, and the Western, Rome. The

Germanic or Teutonic nations came out of their forests. Pressed by the

Mongol hordes from the East, and attracted by the wealth and weakness

of the Empire, Goths (divided into Eastern and Western under the names

of Ostrogoths and Visigoths) and Germanic peoples such as the Franks,

Vandals, Burgundians, Suevi, Heruli, and others, broke like the waves of

some resistless flood over the doomed civilization of Rome. In one year

great provinces such as Spain and Gaul were destroyed. The inhabitants,

long accustomed to peace, congregated mostly in the cities for the sake

of the ease and pleasure afforded there, saw the armies which had so

long guarded their frontiers disappear; the cities were wiped out, and a

cultivated and luxurious population, which had avoided the discipline of

military training, was massacred or enslaved by Pagan barbarians. Rome

itself was captured by the Goths under Alaric (410), and that great city

was plundered and desolated by barbarian hosts. In 476 the Western

Roman Empire came to an end, and in the vast regions where it had so

long reigned, new kingdoms began to grow up. The Eastern part of the

Empire continued, until, in 1453, nearly a thousand years later, Con-

stantinople was captured by the Mohammedan."

I'm really enjoying this view of history. I've always enjoyed learning about history, but I'm realizing that the references to the Church (biblical as well as 'political') have always been vastly inadequate to convey what was really happening. I guess that happens when you put 100 years into a paragraph. Especially when, from ch1, the 'winners write the history'. I'm trying to google various things mentioned, but there's so much...

I'm really enjoying the book. Thanks, everyone who is posting here. I hope more people do.

Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 12:26am
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precious stones

1 Peter 1:1

This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.I am writing to God's chosen people who are living as foreigners in the lands of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia. 2 God the Father chose you long ago, and the Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed Jesus Christ and are cleansed by his blood.May you have more and more of God's special favor and wonderful peace. 3 All honor to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is by his boundless mercy that God has given us the privilege of being born again. Now we live with a wonderful expectation because Jesus Christ rose again from the dead. 4 For God has reserved a priceless inheritance for his children. It is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. 5 And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. 6 So be truly glad! There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for you to endure many trials for a while. 7 These trials are only to test your faith, to show that it is strong and pure. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold -- and your faith is far more precious to God than mere gold.

Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 3:57am
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@ IRB, and 'Pilgrim Church' Club

A-men, and A-men!

*********************************************************************************

Out of respect for the members on this thread, and out of my desire to participate in the 'Pilgrim Church' Book Club and Picnic, I have changed my User Name to one less coarse and, hopefully, more appropriate. Formerly TT, I take my new moniker from the Prodigal's confession: "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no longer worthy to be called thy son."

********************************************************************************

........ "For myself, I am as well as Christ's prisoner can be; for by Him I am master and king of all my crosses. I am above the prison, and the lash of men's tongues; Christ triumpheth in me. I have been casten down, and heavy with fears, and haunted with challenges. I was swimming in the depths, but Christ had His hand under my chin all the time, and took good heed that I should not lose breath; and now I have gotten my feet again, and there are love-feasts of joy, and spring-tides of consolation betwixt Christ and me. We agree well; I have court with Him; I am still welcome to His house. Oh, my short arms cannot fathom His love! I beseech you, I charge you, to help me to praise."......Samuel Rutherford; Letter CXLI ( a portion)

*******************************************************************************

My gratitude to All who feed me here. Like manna in the wilderness, or water from a rock, are your expressions of faith, love, piety and encouragement to this poor, benighted soul of mine. May the Lord himself, like an eagle stirring up it's nest, enliven our study of His church, and provoke us to grow in our Adoration of Him, and our love for one another. May He be the sap in our branches.

*******************************************************************************

1) I am in Chapter 2 @ pg. 32 of "The Pilgrim Church".

2) I have enjoyed the "Money Can't" video at least 10 times.

3) I love Psalm 51. What treasure may be mined there!

4) The story about IRB's Grandmother nearly brought me to tears.

5) If you pray for the backslidden, the stiff-necked, the hard-hearted or the double-minded, then, please, remember me.

I am your soul's well-wisher...NWD (formerly TT)

Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 9:29am (Reply to #742)
NW VIEW
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@ Notworthydale

You have made my morning with such an entrance into this book club. I have seen more revival herein, along with amazing things being written in P.M.'s, than I have seen in the community in ages. Thanks

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 10:29am
NW VIEW
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Page 31 - book club

Instead of churches

being founded in the different towns and countries, independent of any

central organisation and having direct relations with the Lord, as in

Apostolic days, all were drawn into one of the great organizations which

had its centre in Rome or Constantinople or elsewhere. What is true on a

large scale applies also on a small, and the harmful workings of this sys-

tem are seen wherever, instead of sinners being led to Christ and given

the Scriptures as their guide, they are pressed into membership of some

foreign denomination or taught to look to some Mission for guidance

and supplies, the development of the gifts of the Holy Spirit among them

being hindered, and the spread of the Gospel among their countrymen

retarded.

This section could still be written for today. The original character of the Church had been altered by man and aided by the enemy and the reformation did little to correct the problems. Every believer should have a "reforming" heart and spirit. What will a true reformation yield? It will simply bring one back to the way the the Lord "built His Church" and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. What is a reformer? One who refuses to drive down the many wide roads (detours) that lead to destruction.

We also see that the gifts of the Spirit (the entire Church has them - everyone), were hindered and much of this happened via the clergy/layman division of men. As soon as one believes he is just in the SH to attend, join, pay money and keep silent, he has been neutralized. But it is written that we are a kingdom of priests. I am not a layman and neither are you. Stir up the gifts within you.

"COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM OH MY PEOPLE"

P.S. Life is happening here!

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 6:45pm
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THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!

It is very interesting to watch the different forums and the many views from around the world. I have watched many dog fights over the scriptures and the only results being people leaving and moving onward. But around this neck of the woods, we have our own private picnic table. A few items have been brought forth from ribs to lemonade. However there are more differences here than in many places. There is also Life. When we see such post from IRB, SWM, and even our new prodigal (NWD) who has returned from his journey, it shows forth the power of Truth, history, and revelation as given by the many through their testimony. A testimony given by one who has Christ within is light years ahead of arguing over the scriptures. We hope that those who are lurkers will come to the table and bring the food that is needed by the Church.

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 7:47pm
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picnic table

page 20 Chapter 2

"In the course of endless discussions, creeds were hammered out and dogmas enunciated in the hope that the truth would buy them be fixed and could then be handed down to succeeding generations. It is noticeable that in the Scriptures this method is not used. From them we see that the mere letter cannot convey the truth, which is spiritually apprehended, neither can it be handed from one to another, but each one must receive an appropriate it for himself and his inward dealings with God, and be established in it by confessing and maintaining it in the conflict of daily life".

Unless the Lord builds a house we labor in vain. - psalms 127: 1

Especially hard is it to try to open someone's eye's spiritually if that person is someone your love.

PS A special thanks to IRB, NWD, and NW VIEW with your recent post. I am enjoying this book club

Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 8:41pm
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Friends are a blessing

And it's good to see more new friends posting. Thanks NW View, Stackaloha, SWM, NWD, Maryann, foggyroad, JJ, Rockerboxer, BoG, Mr. Fix, silver66, Spartacus Rex, Deacon Benjamin, and anyone that I inadvertently missed. Thanks to TF for providing this space that we're finding such a great way to make use of.

I am humbled and touched by the outpouring here. Let's grow this from here!

"God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." from Acts 2:17

Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 9:10pm
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Monasticism

https://thejesusway.info/pdf/PilgrimChurch/PilgrimChurchVer-0200-beta.pdf

P 28 - "The decline of the churches in spirituality, their departure from the

New Testament pattern, and their consequent growing worldliness, sub-

jection to human systems, and toleration of sin, ... also led some seekers after holiness

and communion with God to withdraw themselves ... So they retired into desert

places and lived as hermits, in order that, freed from the distractions

and temptations of ordinary life, they might by contemplation attain to

that vision and knowledge of God ... an extreme simplicity of living and ascetic practices ...

In the fourth century the hermit Anthony in Egypt became celebrated

for his solitary life, and many, stirred to emulate his piety, established

themselves near to him, imitating his manner of living, and he was per-

suaded to lay down a rule of life for them. … About the beginning

of the sixth century, Benedict of Nursia, in Italy, gave a great impetus

to this movement, and his rule of life for the monastic bodies prevailed

beyond all others. He occupied the monks less exclusively with personal

austerities and turned their activities into the performance of religious

ceremonies and into the service of men, giving especial attention to agri-

culture. The monasteries of the Benedictine order were one of the princi-

pal means by which Christianity was spread among the Teutonic nations

during the seventh and eighth centuries. From Ireland also, by way of

the Isle of Iona and through Scotland, the Columban monasteries and

settlements prepared and sent out devoted missionaries into Northern

and Central Europe.

... A monastery, however, differed

widely from a church, in the New Testament sense of the word, so that

those souls that felt themselves impelled to flee from the worldly Roman

Church did not find in the monastery what a true church would have

provided. They were bound under the rules of an institution instead of

experiencing the free workings of the Holy Spirit.

The various monastic orders that arose followed one course of de-

velopment. Beginning with poverty and severest self-denial, they

became rich and powerful, relaxed their discipline and grew into self-

indulgence and worldliness. Then a reaction would induce some to be-

gin a new order, of absolute self-humiliation, which in its turn traced the

same cycle. ...

... The effort to save the churches from

disunion and heresy by means of the episcopal and clerical system not

only failed, but brought great evils in its train. The expectation that

the persecuted churches would gain by union with the State was dis-

appointed. Monasticism proved unable to provide a substitute for the

churches as a refuge from the world, becoming itself worldly. There re-

mained, however, through all these times one thing capable of bringing

about restoration. The presence of the Scriptures in the world supplied

the means which the Holy Spirit could use in the hearts of men with a

power able to overcome error and bring them back to Divine truth, and

there never ceased to be congregations, true churches, which adhered to

the Scriptures as the guide of faith and doctrine, and the pattern both

for individual conduct and for the order of the Church. These, though

hidden and despised, yet exercised an influence that did not fail to bear

fruit.”

Early Christian Monk preparing his contribution to the picnic

https://www.utahstories.com/2012/03/monks-and-great-beer/

"For centuries prior to our modern era of refrigeration, beer was an essential source of vitamins, nutrients and calories. In the twelfth century it was monks who were the first to begin using hops to preserve beer on a massive scale. Hops allowed beer to remain safe to consume at near room temperature for up to 3 months, this preservative allowed for beer to be safely transported much greater distances than ever before.

Monasteries were the first to produce beer in large batches for mass consumption. For centuries beer has been an excellent source of liquid nourishment. But the ability to preserve and transport beer was an especially significant discovery because many towns in medieval Europe often didn’t have access to reliable sources of drinking water. Beer is boiled and thus sanitized in the brewing process, killing microbes and bacteria. Monks brewed their share, but gave away the excess to their communities. Contrary to popular misconceptions, Monks in Medieval Europe did not live in isolation from their communities. Many, especially of the Benedictine Order, dedicated their lives to improving the human condition for their communities through their labors. "

https://youtu.be/fCz_kNFludA

Mon, Jul 28, 2014 - 10:37pm
silver66
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I posted a comment about this book on Mainstreet

i am now 80 pages in and am riveted by it. It is brimming with ideas for me about God's ownership and my responsibility of stewardship,incredible the 2000 year old new ideals :-)

https://archive.org/details/manhismoney00calk

​Silver66

Silver66 Rage against the dying of the light

Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 9:29am
NW VIEW
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Page 36 of the book club

The Messianic-typical meaning of the Old Testament and

the historical progress of the New are pointed out, and this not only

for the sake of knowledge, but as showing that not some only, but all the

saints are called to complete sanctification.

Such teachings soon brought these circles into conflict with those of

the Roman Church, especially as represented by such a scheming, polit-

ical bishop as Hydatius. The clergy saw in the holy life of the ordinary

believer that which assailed their peculiar position. The power of “apos-

tolic succession" and of the priestly office was shaken by teaching which

insisted on holiness and constant renewal of life by the Holy Spirit and

communion with God. The distinction between clergy and laity was bro-

ken down by this, especially when the magical working of the sacraments

was exchanged for a living possession of salvation through faith. The

breach was irreparable because due to two distinct views of the Church.

It was not only a question of suppressing conventicles or of opposing

what threatened to become an order of monks apart from the Church,

but of a complete difference of principle. The policy of Hydatius was

to strengthen the power of the Metropolitan as representing the See of

Rome, with a view to carrying out the

Roman centralizing organization

which was as yet unpopular in Spain and incomplete and was opposed

by the lesser bishops. The circles with which Priscillian was associated

were in principle diametrically opposed to this; their occupation with

Scripture and acceptance of it as their guide in all things led them to de-

sire the Independence of each congregation, and this they were already

putting into practice.

We can see herein, that long ago, the saints saw the folly of the clergy and their believed positions in the SH's. This so-called magical working of the sacraments (transubstantiation) was used almost from the beginning to entrap the flock into believing the clergy had an inroad with God and the common man only had the clergy to work through for any hope of salvation. The flocks were preconditioned to believe that it did not matter if the clergy were more sinful than those outside the SH. It must be O.K. because they have the power given to them by God to change the elements to the Body/Blood of the Lord. So if God has given them this magical ability, who am I to oppose it? TRAPPED. If they would have thought about it at that time they could have said that a pair of glasses fell from heaven and now the priests have the ability to read the "true meanings" of the scriptures for the people and the only set fell in Rome. (That would have saved them the time of writing their own new gospels. Yes this did happen latter in America and it still is working for a SH). The systems love to make the flock believe that they have a special revelation that they and only they have been given by the Lord. These things entrap the sheep and without any discernment, the sheep will be penned up forever. Things will work well for them until the called out ones like Polycarp stand in the midst of the sheep and say, "thus saith the Lord". Those days are coming and are now.

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 5:49pm
NW VIEW
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THE ENEMY IS WORKING OVERTIME!

Well there seems to be a surge of problems for those around the picnic table this week. I have talked to another picnic poster who, like me, has seen the attacks this week.

This of course brings up "daydreams" or old stories for me. Today, it is just a daydream:

The day finally arrived when I was forcibly removed from my home by the evil empire in their robes. I spent a few days in the dungeon and on one sunny morning was taken to a courtyard, filled with angry people, and was tied to a pole along with several other people that I had never seen before. I thought I recognized one woman on the other side of the brush pile.

I started to wonder if I had been placed in a time warp and traveled back to the time of Polycarp but then I saw the man next to me with a dead cell phone. Then it happened. The leader of this band of evil workers approached us and said "If you will deny Christ and return to the mother church, we will let you live and return to your families."

He said what is your answers before I light your fire? Well the man next to me on the left said" My name is IRB and I wandered this world for many years and I came to a place where I knew that Christ is the only way and I have received him. On my left was a man who said "My name is NWD and I have tried your methods in the past and have finally come to the Light as a prodigal and I will never return again to that pig pen."

I started to get excited to know that there were others to walk this roadway with me. Next I listened to two, MaryAnn and SWM. They both stated that their lives were hidden in Christ and not in some SH system. SWM said "light the fire". On the backside of the pile I heard Jer. Jr. and Foggyroad telling the men with the lighted sticks to repent of their sins and come to Christ while it is still day.

The last thing I remembered was someone in the pile saying "It is time to gather at that great banqueting table that is set before us in His Kingdom and these before us who do not come to Christ will not have any part of His Kingdom even if they claim to be servants of the Lord." The next scene was that big table, with ribs and lemonade. amen

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 7:55pm
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Heliand

In German, if that does you any good - https://www.wulfila.be/lib/sievers/1878/html/A002.html

----------------------------

Video unavailable

The Lord's Prayer in Heliand

Father of us all, the sons of men
You are in the high heavenly kingdom
Blessed be Your name in every word
May Your mighty kingdom come
May Your will be done over all this world—
just the same on earth as it is up there
in the high heavenly kingdom.
Give us support, each day, good Chieftain,
Your holy help, and pardon, Protector of Heaven,
our many crimes, just as we do to other human beings
Do not let loathsome wights lead us off
to do their will, as we deserve,
but help us against all evil deeds.


https://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2006/03/the-lords-prayer-in-the-heliand/#ixzz38u6LnOoP

----------------------------------

I'm having a little trouble locating an English translation available online. There's a book but it's expensive, and I'm not sure I'm that interested. But if anyone is a search wizard and can find a .pdf in English, please post it.

Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 8:00pm
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Barbarians

The Pilgrim Church - p 31 - "A purer form of missionary work, however, than that which went out

from Rome, spread from Ireland, through Scotland to Northern and Cen-

tral Europe...

They delayed baptism

until those professing faith had received a certain amount of instruction

and had given some proof of steadfastness. They avoided attacking the

religions of the people, counting it more profitable to preach the truth to

them than to expose their errors. They accepted the Holy Scriptures as

the source of faith and life and preached justification by faith.

They did

not take part in politics or appeal to the State for aid. All this work, in its

origin and progress, though it had developed some features alien to New

Testament teaching and Apostolic example, was independent of Rome

and different in important respects from the Roman Catholic system."

“Despite an eagerness to exploit political divisions among the barbarians, Rome only slowly, and never fully, grasped the power of converting the barbarians. The apparently elaborate church organization in Roman Scythia during the fourth and fifth centuries may have been involved in some sort of missionary activity toward the barbarians, but if so it has escaped the literary sources. Cross cultural evangelism was not a priority for third, fourth and fifth century Christianity.”
https://www.christianchronicler.com/history1/barbarian_breakthrough.html

https://thejesusway.info/pdf/PilgrimChurch/PilgrimChurchVer-0200-beta.pdf

"On the Continent the widespread and established mission work of

the Irish and Scottish missionaries was attacked by the Roman system

under the active leadership of the English Benedictine Boniface, whose

policy was to compel the British missionaries to submit, at least out-

wardly, to Rome, or be destroyed. He obtained State aid, under the di-

rection of Rome, for the enforcement of his design. Boniface was killed

by the Friesians in 755. The system he inaugurated gradually extin-

guished the earlier missions, but their influence strengthened many of the movements of reform which followed.

A Harmony of the four Gospels called “Heliand" (i.e., “the Saviour"),

written about 830 or earlier, an alliterative epic in the old Saxon lan-

guage, was doubtless written in the circles of the British mission on the

Continent. It contains the Gospel narrative in a form calculated to ap-

peal to the people for whom it was written, and is remarkable for being

free from any adoration of the Virgin or the saints, and from most of the

characteristic features of the Roman Church at that period.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, this chapter is leading to a TON of related information. If I stray too far from 'Christian Support' into historical study, please speak up. The early Barbarian conversions were mostly 'nicer' than I had understood. Later, the Viking conversions were not. But one of the things emphasized in The Pilgrim Church is that the true biblical Church has never (or was only briefly) been the force behind the 'historical image' of Christianity. So even the very brutal forced conversions of Vikings, I'm seeing in a slightly different light already. But we're not there yet. Related links on the early outreach:

Church history: Conversion of the ancient Germans and Slavs — 400-800 a.d [germanic]

Why, during the period from approximately 400 A.D. to 800 A.D., would the northern victor adopt the religion of the vanquished south? https://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/400.htm

--------------------------

https://www.christianhistoryproject.org/to-the-constantine-era/barbarian-rome/ Heavy gold rings emphasized thick necks and bulging biceps. Tacitus describes their fierce eyes of piercing blue, luxuriant mustaches and wild, flowing hair–yellow to flaming red. (They greased it with rancid, stinking butter and were known to dye it even redder.) They attacked in a disorderly but furious rush, like wild beasts or demons, shrieking battle cries and brandishing great iron-pointed spears.

However, the Romans did admire some Germanic traits, which they considered reminiscent of their own revered ancestors, the honorable and upright founders of the Roman republic. They were hardy, bold, courageous and independent, according to Tacitus, in tune with the forces of nature, devoted to their families and moral in sexual matters. They set great store by chastity, he writes, which would be in marked contrast to the profligate habits by then typical of decadent Roman society. Germani warriors were raiders but apparently not known as rapists. They married late, usually not until the early twenties, and may have been expected to remain chaste until then–possibly to safeguard their strength.

------------------------------------

https://theburgundian.blogspot.com/2009/06/christian-conversion-of-burgundians.html That the majority of the Germanic tribes followed heretical Arianism was probably not an accident. As it had fallen out of favor within the empire, it had increased its influence among the Germanic people outside of the empire. In the case of the Visigoths under Theodosius, the barbarians preferred the decentralized, mostly locally governed Arian Christianity over the organized and centrally governed Catholic faith, which they believed would intrude upon their traditions and tend to weaken their social identity

--------------------------------------

https://www.christianchronicler.com/history1/barbarian_breakthrough.html Northern barbarians actually possessed a rich culture. By the fourth century they had a system of writing, a stable government and an effective legal system. The "blood tie" was basic to the society. The basic Germanic political unit was the comitatus, consisting of a chief and his warband. When a chief died the people elected the next chief from the royal family by vote. They selected the individual they considered most "throne worthy." The Germanic law code consisted of the wergeld, a table of payments based on the wronged party's position in society. Barbarians usually determined guilt or innocence in trial by ordeal. At the root, law resided in the "volk." No one could alter custom without community agreement. Furthermore, most barbarians were morally superior to the Romans. While they lacked social graces, the Germanic peoples displayed courage, hospitality and honesty. Barbarians and Romans were both cruel, but it shocked barbarians to discover that Romans used torture to extract criminal confessions.

----------------------------

I also ran across the term syncretism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism

“Religious syncretism exhibits blending of two or more religious belief systems into a new system, or the incorporation into a religious tradition of beliefs from unrelated traditions. This can occur for many reasons, and the latter scenario happens quite commonly in areas where multiple religious traditions exist in proximity and function actively in the culture, or when a culture is conquered, and the conquerors bring their religious beliefs with them, but do not succeed in entirely eradicating the old beliefs or, especially, practices. “

This is another very interesting topic related to Christmas, Easter, and other assorted traditions that were 'absorbed' from earlier traditions. It's very interesting stuff. This might not be the place for it, though, as it is sometimes used as 'ammo' by people attempting to discredit the faith. I'm not sure it needs to be viewed through that lens, so I think I'll follow that rabbit hole for a bit when I can.

Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 8:59pm
NW VIEW
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4146
19887

An add on!

Peter Whyte has long ago warned the Church about the S.H. systems. He is a good friend of people I know in RSA and his books are a blessing. Here is a portion of Chapter 2 of "Come out from among them oh my people". I passed about 100 copies of his book "Mystery Babylon" out in the NW about 25+ years ago and the SH's are still upset:

Chapter 2

ORGANIZATION AND STRUCTURE

Without structure no organization can exist or function. Our churches

are all in some form or another relig

ious organizations, and have to have

structures to maintain their existen

ce, yet Jesus never started a religious

organization.

How then do we reconcile our con

cepts of church today with the

example and teaching of Jesus Christ and His apostles?

Since our King is the firstborn of

many brethren, the first Apostle, our

High Priest, our Shepherd and the onl

y Master and Teacher, why is His

example not followed today?

Jesus never called Himsel

f Reverend, dressed in special clothes to let

all know that He was a servant of God,

built a building in which to conduct

services, suggested that His disciples

tithed to Him or took up offerings at

His meetings.

He prepared for His ministry by wo

rking as a carpenter, supporting His

mother and younger brothers and sist

ers after Joseph had died. He never

studied under the Rabbis in Jerusalem

which was His era's equivalent of

seminary or Bible school. From the age

of twelve until He was about thirty

He lived and worked in a small

village and HAD FELLOWSHIP WITH

GOD

THE FATHER.

For eighteen years He was an indus

trious, upright member of His

community,

"Increasing in wisdom and st

ature, and in favour with God

and men."

When He eventually began to teach:-

"The Jews marvelled, saying, ‘H

ow has this man become learned,

having never been educated?’"

(In.7:l5)

It is not surprising that the Jews

marvelled, because here we have One

who had

not

gone through their religious syst

em of instruction and yet He

had become their teacher.

It is obvious that God does not need to process His servants through the

religious systems of the world in or

der to produce an

Apostle, Prophet,

Priest and King.

If we consult the Holy Spirit and follo

w the teachings of Jesus we will

discover that having intimate fellowship

with God is the best way to become

a disciple of the King and His Kingdom.

Unfortunately the world has penetrated

the church to such a degree that

we only feel secure when we bel

ong to some visible structure or

organization, and especially when ther

e is some clearly defined chain of

command. Before we can get delivered from

this deep rooted need to be part

of some religious structure, we must

understand the origins and purpose of

organizations and structures.

Since Jesus created all things, He cr

eated organizations and structures.

However He created them long before

He created man, and He designed

them for the heavenly hosts. Principa

lities, powers, rule

rs and authorities

were made in the heavenlies before we

humans existed. It was for them that

God created the "chain of command" system.

His angels were divided into three

groups, each ruled by an Archangel.

So great is the authority of these th

ree over their hosts, that when one of

them, Lucifer, rebelled and was cast out

of God's presence, all the angels

under his authority went with him. Th

ey came to the earth, and from the

invisible spirit realm they influence,

corrupt and endeavour

to destroy man

who is God's most cherished creation.

Men and women were crea

ted by God in His Image.

They are created to

be

like

God, with total freedom of choice, a

nd created to rule, not to be ruled

by Satan and evil spirits, or anything that lives and moves upon the earth.

"And God blessed them (the man and

the woman), and God said to

them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and

fill the earth, and SUBDUE IT

AND RULE over the fish of the sea

and over the birds of the sky

and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

(Gen. 1:28)

When Adam and Eve fell they rejected the Kingdom of God, (God's

Government) and opened the way for

Satan to introduce his government,

which only operates by orga

nization and a pyramid type Structure, with

commands passed down from the top.

The first mention of a kingdom in

the Bible is that established by

Nimrod, who founded the city of Ba

bylon. (Gen. 10:8-10) This was the

beginning of the kingdoms of this

world, and very gradually Satan

introduced his Babylonian system of

government until the whole world

came under his systemized structures.

Right through the history of the Ol

d Testament we see God desiring a

people for Himself. A people who will voluntarily submit to His very

different type of government whic

h functions only out of a love

relationship.

A flow of love that originat

es in God the Father, Son and

Holy Spirit, and flows back to God out of the spirit of a man who has

discovered the joy of serving and glorifying his creator.

Authoritarian type Structures, even

the most subtle we can design, are

like dictatorships, and have their origin in Satan's kingdom and are

opposed to the Kingdom of God.

How sad our heavenly Father must be

to see His children ensnared in

Babylon's system of government, and thei

r leaders using scripture verses to

promote their worldly concepts of authority and submission. Like big

business corporations they produce c

onstitutions and statements of belief

which all must obey and agree

upon to qualify as members.

Well meaning Christians, unwittingl

y living in Babylon, approach

others with questions like, "Which

church do you belong to?" or "Who do

you submit to?" Their concepts are so

worldly that when any member fails

to submit to their hierarchy or agree with their beliefs or practices, he or she

is rejected. Lost members, splits, di

visions and great h

eartaches are the

result.

Confusion, Babylon reigns, and God's Kingdom is divided against itself.

When Jesus came with His Gospel

of the Kingdom of God, He came to

set the captives free from the Babyloni

an rule that had enveloped God's

people and permeated their religious system.

In her early years the church was

the family of God, a redeemed

community within every community, unstructured, without special

buildings, hymn books, head offices, c

onstitutions, hierarchies, church

boards, Missionary boards, building

funds, Popes, Archbishops, Priests,

Nuns, women's meetings, Sunday school

s, seminaries, Bible schools, para-

church organizations, and everything el

se associated today with "proper

Christianity". All these things appear

important to the natural minds of

men, but are totally irrelevant in

God's Kingdom. Jesus can build His

Church without them, and in fact they hinder Him.

In the early church everybody experienced

real church life

. No

young people were sent away to learn about God and His Word in a

special school. Their school was the

community in which they lived -

the

family of God

- all the believers in their

town. The apostles came and

lived with them, and worked for their

living in the area for months or even

years.

Apostles formed Christ in the

disciples by living with them,

demonstrating Him, and teaching them to

do all the things that Jesus had

commanded them. Then they departed, l

eaving the local church to find its

own way under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

They did not even have Bibles to

guide them. No Pastor was sent from

some Head Office to lead and guide th

e new church. Slowly, painstakingly,

over many years, lives were formed

, and within these communities, GOD

began to make prophets, evangelists, pa

stors and teachers. The Holy Spirit

decided matters. There were no "gra

duation ceremonies" producing raw

young "Ministers of the Gospel", w

ho had become "Reverends" by passing

examinations.

The people, those ordinary people wh

ich the Scriptures call the church,

began to recognize the ministries func

tioning in their midst, and said, "God

has given us a pastor or prophet or

prophetess". These words are not titles

but simply describe functions of certa

in believers who onl

y Jesus can gift

and enable.

The pastor or prophet or any other gift

of the risen Christ did not then

become "part of the clergy"

, but simply functioned as part of the body, no

better, no more important than the se

rving girl believer who washed the

floor.

THE WORD OF CHRIST WAS NOT FORGOTTEN

.

"...whoever wishes to become

great among you shall be your

servant, and whoever wishes to

be first among you shall be your

slave, just as the Son of Man did

not come to be served but to

serve..."

(Matt. 20:26-28)

All the believers in the town were

collectively known as the church. The

name of the town was only added to

identify those believers by locality, so

we have the church at Corinth or Ro

me or Jerusalem. Individually "they

were known as disciples, not church

members. The false concept that a

building in which we meet is called

a church was only introduced by Satan

after many years. The church could asse

mble together but they could not "go

to church", and would have been

astounded if anybody had asked which

church they belonged to.

It would only be after many years of

the experience of real church life

that the Holy Spirit would cause apostles,

prophets or evangelists to be sent

out from these local churches, and they

were anointed by God, not appointed

by men. They went without Bibles or

prepared sermons or notes, but the

Holy Spirit directed them and they

imparted LIFE

instead of lectures.

When they came to any town wher

e there were other believers they

were immediately received as part

of the church, becau

se there was no

difference except in the name of the lo

cality. They all loved and served one

another because that was the most ba

sic and most important command of the

King. There was no need or place fo

r human organization or structure

because relationships within a large fa

mily, united by one Spirit are all that

matter.

Problems arose when some of the Je

ws, who had been raised in the

Jewish religious system, tried to

introduce circumcision as a necessary

qualification for salvation.

(Acts 15) The greatest opposition to the Word of

God preached by Paul came from those in the religious systems of the time,

both Judaistic and pagan. An example

is the record in Acts 19 of the

happenings in Ephesus.

Large numbers of Scribes and Pharis

ees believed in Christ, but their

worldly concepts of religious structur

es followed with them, and so Satan

was able to introduce the spirit of

Babylon to the church. Structures,

organizations and the pyramid form of

control cannot func

tion without rules

and regulations. The traditions and laws

of the Jews we

re Satan's best

weapon to confuse and entrap the

un-renewed minds of many fledgling

disciples.

The life in the Spirit that

is the normal Christian life is impossible if we

allow rules and laws and traditions of

religious structures to restrain and

contain us. Paul warned the Philippians:-

“Beware of the dogs, beware of the

evil workers, beware of the false

circumcision: for we are the true

circumcision WHO WORSHIP IN

THE SPIRIT OF GOD and glory

in Christ Jesus and put no

confidence in the flesh."

(Phil. 3:2,3)

When Jesus spoke to the Samarita

n woman who had five husbands, He

declared plainly that man-made pla

ces of worship, including Solomon's

temple, were no longer re

quired by God. He announced

that God only wants

worship "in Spirit and in Truth", which can be anywhere that a person joined

to God's Spirit happens to be. There are

no "holy places" or special buildings

for people to meet with God in His plan for His Church.

"Jesus said to her, "Woman, belie

ve Me, an hour is coming when

neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem shall you worship, the

Father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that

which we know, for salvation is

from the Jews. BUT AN HOUR IS

COMING AND NOW IS when the TRUE WORSHIPPERS

SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN

SPIRIT AND TRUTH. For

such people the Father seeks to be

His worshippers. God is SPIRIT

and those who worship Him must worship IN SPIRIT AND

TRUTH."

(In.4:2l-24)

Our Church buildings, temples, sa

nctuaries and Holy Places have

assumed such dominance over our minds

, that we cannot imagine how to

meet without them. They

have become the centre of our Christian life and

subtly replaced our homes as the mo

st important meeting places. While we

can worship together in great numbers,

fellowship is only experienced on an

intimate basis and is impossible in a

large crowd. You cannot fellowship the

back of somebody's head.

When I use the word fellowship, I

use it in the New Testament sense

which has a deeper meaning than

our modem understanding, which is

generally limited to mean attending church.

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 9:26pm
I Run Bartertown
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Thoughts on this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag

The Christian Flag is a flag designed in the early 20th century to represent all of Christianity and Christendom, and has been most popular among Christian churches in North America, Africa and Latin America. The shade of red on the cross symbolizes the blood Jesus shed on Calvary. The blue represents the waters of baptism as well as the faithfulness of Jesus. The white represents Jesus' purity.

https://kingveteransmemorial.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/christian-flag1.jpg"I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One brotherhood, uniting all mankind, in service and love."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any opinions on this? It seems well-intentioned and harmless. Maybe too 'graven image'-ey ? Just curious if many had it as part of their Church or had any opinion.

Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 10:36pm
NW VIEW
Offline
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
4146
19887

Flags, signs and marks

What is the value of the Christian flag? It is not a bad thing nor a symbol that will draw mankind. I taught long ago that a monkey could go to the SH on Sunday mornings, be baptized, pay his tithes, join the SH, never say anything bad about anyone and be seen as a quality member, the flag will not help! The flag is a symbol and the RCC like to put ashes on the foreheads of their flock once a year but these outward signs are from man and not in the scriptures.

Now there are signs and marks that will determine one's outcome:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+9:4-6

And these marks are placed by Him who has called us out of darkness and into His Light.

NW VIEW >>>1 Cor. 1:18
Tue, Jul 29, 2014 - 11:09pm (Reply to #754)
Mr. Fix
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NY
Joined: Jun 8, 2012
10801
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@ NW VIEW :

I just read your post on “ the church”,

and to a great extent, I agree with it. I have always known that Jesus Christ was opposed to an “organized church”, and modern-day “religion”, particularly “going to church”, contradicts everything he taught.

I think the biggest single issue is “church hierarchy”, because Jesus clearly viewed all of us as equal, and any time you place one man in a position of authority over others, you have essentially killed God's law.

For this reason, I do not believe in “religion”, any more than I believe in “government”, they are everything wrong with our world today.

Your description of the “early church”, is exactly what was intended, and is what was stomped out by the Vatican and its Roman army.

What we are left with today is not spiritual at all.

It is dogma, rules and regulations, all of which must be followed, under penalty of eternal damnation.

Not to mention, once you get to “under penalty of law”, disobedience could be life-threatening.

This is why I have always believed that both religion and government is the work of the devil, (if there is such a thing). God did not create hierarchy, that is entirely the work of control freaks trying to rule their fellow man.

Regardless of the semantics involved, nothing about modern religion has anything to do with God's will.

The entire passage on Adam and Eve, is something I've always disagreed with, holding each and every human being accountable for some “sin” by an ancient ancestor, is sheer lunacy, and in fact quite immoral.

This also has nothing to do with God, and is a man-made fable.

I vehemently disagree with the belief that mankind is “inherently flawed”, when we all know that God created everything perfect, why would he make an exception for mankind?

If there was no religion, and there was no government, people would not suddenly feel the urge to annihilate each other. In fact, it's highly likely they would learn to get along.

It is only through religion and government that mankind is capable of nationalistic pride, and the false belief that one religion is any better than another.

All they cause is genocide.

As a simple rule of thumb, anything that unites us, and promotes the perception that we are in fact all one, is loosely translated, “God's will”.

Anything that divides us, or creates any kind of separation whatsoever, is not God's will, because, in the end, no one is better than anyone else.

God is love, pure and simple, he is not capable of wrath, that is something that human beings with no conscious contact with God whatsoever perpetrated on each other.

And I think we'll be seeing a lot of that in the present and our near future.

Christ really did show mankind how to live, what was real, and what was not.

Subverting his teachings to collect power by governments and religion have kept mankind entrapped and enslaved for thousands of years now.

I do hope we wake up soon.

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."
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