Well I did watch the entire tape and it is interesting. There are many, many views of the book of Daniel and thousands of views. It really takes "Revelation" to have any understanding of any and all scriptures. For me, I will wait and see! My own revelations on Daniel are incomplete at this time. As we all see in Daniel 12:9: "And he (the angel) said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end". Now I do know that means "sealed until the end". The Spirit will bring forth the full revelations of this book as He wills.
My concerns today however, are the Revelations that the Spirit has given to the current Church which are ignored by the majority. One can be incorrect in the views of Daniel and be completely O.K., however, if we miss the Revelations of the Word of the Lord: "Unless you believe that I AM Who I say I AM, you will die in your sin", one may be eternally lost.
Thanks BIGNASTY for that video. Jim
The degree to which something is successful in producing a desired result; success: the effectiveness of the treatment
How will the Church be the most effective in the end days? One needs to choose their battles and fight the fight worth dying for. The enemy has thousands of topics to discuss, doctrines to ponder, assemblies to attend, and meetings to discuss the evolution of the church age.
One of my good friends from college was on his steeple house board of some kind to discuss allowing perverts to be their preachers. (They are now). Where were to true elders to stand in the gap for the assembly?
This last week, an old preacher told me that a steeple house he knows of, just had all the preachers quit. Therefore, that very liberal assembly is moving into the steeple house of another not quite so liberal assembly and the two will become like minded. OH WHAT A MESS!
There are so many distractions that are tempting to just jump in and stir the pot. We could consider Hillary or Donald or even Bernie and their pros or cons. We could consider the fate of Cassius Clay, for that is his birth name ,and what he would say about Who Jesus is TODAY! Waste of time and only stirs the pot. We could argue the scriptures, should there have been more/less books in the bible and what was left out? Will not change anything.
That which makes a change is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and Him being invited within. Once a person has this indeed, he is changed forever and his life is placed on a pathway to eternity. Let us suffer for our "confession of Faith in Christ" and not for our foolishness in the battles that are in the lost world. jmo Jim
Jim I appreciated Joels attitude in his presentation I thought he was very gentle and adogmatic, if that is even a word. What I was impressed by was his enthusiasm as being able to witness effectively if the view begins to unfold. On a geopolitical level it helped me connect some dots for myself. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I have not devoted a ton of time to end time prophecy because of it being sealed but have been blessed over and over this year when I have gotten time to allow my self to be fed.
There are many posts, on many sites, wherein the discussion on freedom is viewed. Many see their freedoms being extracted by kings, priests and governments. Bondage is returning, just as it was in past generations. The many "thought" that by coming to America, by sailing ships or jet planes, would secure their freedom from the corruption of the evil would. For many, it did work for a season as they left behind the downfall of their governments and religious systems.
How, oh how, could modern man have fallen backwards into this present darkness upon all nations? It really is open to see if we look to what real Freedom is all about and how that Freedom was once delivered to all mankind for "whosoever will".
Galatians 5:1 - Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
1 Peter 2:16 - As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
Galatians 5:13 - For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
2 Corinthians 3:17 - Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Romans 6:18 - Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 8:1-4 - [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Read More...)
Isaiah 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
2 Timothy 1:7 - For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Romans 6:22 - But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
John 8:36 - If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Isaiah 58:6-7 - [Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
If we look for freedom within this world, if we look to governments, laws, divided religious systems or even the courts, we will be in bondage till the very end. That freedom will not last and never has. It is time to "wake up" and seek Him while it is still day. He who has Christ within and his life hid in Christ, has obtained the Freedom of the Universe and nothing in heaven nor on the earth will rob this Freedom which is nothing less than "Jesus Christ in you, the Hope of Glory"! Jim
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8)
There are some practical things that one may do, as tribulations approach, to build up our faith in Him. For many years, we gathered in small breakfast groups, once a week. There needs to be those who have a burden for the lost and for those dying in their pews. This gathering must be outside of the organized steeple house systems and led by men of vision and discernment or the next thing that will happen is Right Rev. Mary Jones will suck the group into and under her ministry. At that point, you are again in a state of ruin. One could use a book like "House Church" from www.NTRF.org and discuss the lessons that have been learned from their gatherings. If revival does not break forth within our nation, there will not be any chance of the removal of judgment and the full force of mystery Babylon will be at our doorsteps. jmo Jim
1. The book written by Enoch--[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2. Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.
3. And the righteous one shall arise from sleep,
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4. He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
5. And sin shall perish in darkness for ever,
And shall no more be seen from that day for evermore.
Yes, v. 2 above is great to ponder:
2. Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things. (And these "all things" are coming).
One can receive more of the real news from a site like Mr. Shoebat's than from the politically correct/corrupted media. Jim
4. And the spirits of you who have died in righteousness shall live and rejoice,
And their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One
Unto all the generations of the world: wherefore no longer fear their contumely.
5. Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died,
If ye die in the wealth of your sins,
And those who are like you say regarding you:
'Blessed are the sinners: they have seen all their days.
6. And how they have died in prosperity and in wealth,
And have not seen tribulation or murder in their life; p. 148
And they have died in honour,
And judgement has not been executed on them during their life."
7. Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol
And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation.
8. And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter;
And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world.
Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace.
9. Say not in regard to the righteous and good who are in life:
"In our troubled days we have toiled laboriously and experienced every trouble,
And met with much evil and been consumed,
And have become few and our spirit small.
10. And we have been destroyed and have not found any to help us even with a word:
We have been tortured ⌈and destroyed⌉, and not hoped to see life from day to day.
11. We hoped to be the head and have become the tail:
We have toiled laboriously and had no satisfaction in our toil;
And we have become the food of the sinners and the unrighteous,
And they have laid their yoke heavily upon us.
12. They have had dominion over us that hated us †and smote us;
And to those that hated us† we have bowed our necks
But they pitied us not.
13. We desired to get away from them that we might escape and be at rest,
But found no place whereunto we should flee and be safe from them. p. 149
14. And are complained to the rulers in our tribulation,
And cried out against those who devoured us,
But they did not attend to our cries
And would not hearken to our voice.
15. And they helped those who robbed us and devoured us and those who made us few; and they concealed their oppression, and they did not remove from us the yoke of those that devoured us and dispersed us and murdered us, and they concealed their murder, and remembered not that they had lifted up their hands against us. (Chapter 103)
When the majority, begin to believe that America is truly Mystery Babylon, we will begin to see the fate before us and only those with the Mark of the Lord will escape. Some of us have pondered if we are currently within the time of tribulations and the fall festivals must be watched closely for their full fulfillment. Corruption has invaded almost every area of our lives from governments/family and even the religious systems made by man. The only Hope is for those who have Christ within and follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
When the electricity is turned off, when the Costco shelves are empty, when you get your drinking water out of a local river, when your steeple house is empty , when our cell phones are dead/when our visiting on the net is only a memory, when our fiat is worthless, when finding one with "the Word of the Lord" is not, when every foundation within our lives is shaken, the few will still be standing on Unshakable Ground. The clouds of tribulation has entered the world and the only hope for an extended time is "true/national repentance", however, the lost systems of this world crave more of Harry Potter and Hollywood trash.
The days will come when many will seek a place to hear the Word of the Lord and the many will see that their bugout bag was filled with many temporary items and void of the Spirit. jmo Jim
Amos 8:11King James Version (KJV)
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
We try to avoid falling into the traps of the politics of the nations. The steeple houses have strayed from the "gospel of the Kingdom" and fallen into the pit of greed/speculations/power/members and self. Almost all have their political views. Jesus could have destroyed all of Rome and the rest of the world if He wanted but the time was not right. Next time will be different.
That so called church of that day, those under the old blood covenant, wanted Barbsaus:
15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.
16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. (Matthew 27 kjv).
Many are going to be disappointed after the elections this fall. They have prayed daily, hoped for a change, marched the streets and cast their ballots and fallen short. The Lord will not give them (the minority) what they want but what the nation deserves, a Barabbas. The Lord raised up pharaoh, long ago, not because he was a good ruler but the Lord would use him for His Own purposes, setting the stage for the covenant people to head for the promise land.
America will have a new president that will be a reflection of the sins of the nation. Hoping for judgment to be withheld, after decades of demonic sins, will not happen. Corruption has invaded us from all quarters. The church, which should have been preaching Jesus as the Christ and Him crucified and being seen as a Light to the nation, has become a business as they teach the precepts of men. The trillions of dollars in assets within these fallen systems will be counted as a witness/judgment in that day. They have also chosen their modern Barabbas.
He said "Let not your heart be troubled" and that is a great word. We do not lose one moment of sleep over the coming elections. He will allow the ones that He wants to come to the top and will use them, even in their own evil ways, as a judgment on the nations. There are millions of great people within the steeple houses and millions of believers without, however, the sin in the camp has reached the height of Heaven and repentance has become an evil word. Yes, the house has become a desolate place. jmo Jim
There are days that we get trapped into social events that are uncomfortable. Today was one of those days. I traveled to a graveside funeral today for an extended family member. I did not know if there would be many people attending but there were about 120 at the site. The memorial was for a woman who was half polish and half American Indian. Then it happened! A representative from the tribe began to conduct the service. The woman had been raised RCC her whole life and was never involved with the local tribe. However, the tribal person began to tell the people that the land that they stood upon was once tribal land. Next, she asked the spirits of the dead tribal nation to come and stand by the people as it was their way of doing things:
(Side Note): I was looking for the place to run to before the demonic spirits came to visit and invade, thinking that all these steeple house Christians would stampede like a herd of buffalo to get away! Nope! It was only I who was across the parking area behind a car as she began to beat the war drums to call in the demonic. Is there not one thimble full of discernment left within our steeple house system? We have cast demons out of Indians in the past as they flop on the ground but one will have a difficult time today if they look for deliverance ministry.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Mankind plays with the things that they really do not understand and receive the wages of death and destruction. Jim
The enemy, long ago, even from the garden, has introduced "correctness" among the Children of God. New ways of thinking, new ways of enlightenment, and new ways of a departure from that which was first delivered to them.
There are times when we meet someone who has the Light of Life within them and it is a great blessing. Most of the time, we see those who have long ago departed from the calling of the Church. As times of tribulations approach, these departures from the Truth will become a heavy weight upon ones life. Correctness has helped to destroy the steeple house systems. Many have lost the ability to call "sin" as sin and "repentance" as a cure for their detours. It is easy to become a member of a politically correct S.H. group and more difficult to become one who will enter into the Gates of the Kingdom. Have we so guarded our speech and our witness that we have been neutralized as a "Light unto a lost world"?
Yes it is Sunday morning and I must say: Jesus is the Light of the world and the Light within those who have received Him. It is He who has paid the total price for the salvation of the Church, the Body, and He is the "only" Way, the Only Truth and the Only Life. Jim
Jesus said in Matthew 24:
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Yes he who endures unto the "end", the same shall be saved! It is also difficult these days to hear any preaching of "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations". The scriptures are filled with the kingdom message, however the modern systems are concerned with prosperity, growth, a big name and having a priestcraft which has departed from the original vision for the Church. jmo Jim
We traveled to the big city this morning, starting at the farmers market. On one end of the market was one selling her demonic gifts in Tarot Card reading and on the other end was a woman selling her witchcraft in palm reading. Through the middle of the market was the usual T-shirts of so called gay pride and the streets are filled with Sodom. Yes the city is filled with todays "Saturday Festival" and tomorrow, the degenerate parade will close down the streets. Do we wonder why our nation is under judgment?
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
There will not be any parades in hell. Jim
Colossians 3King James Version (KJV)
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
The Anabaptists were Biblical Christians who emerged into prominence during the Biblical revival of the 1500's. Bible translators had been at work since the 1300's when John Wycliffe, "the morning star of the Reformation", had done his work of translation and sent out his young itinerant ministers, the ones who came to be called "Lollards". God's message was now beginning to go out to nations in the West. Gutenberg’s printing presses with the finely engineered movable type had come out of Germany in 1450. They were now printing scripture portions, pamphlets, and tracts for the common man and in great numbers.
The Word Word of God breaths new Life into the human soul. And new higher levels of faith inspires new hopes and dreams. It also causes reactions. Voices of opposition are immediately raised from those halls of power that guard the status quo. The conversation among the people was starting to generate some heat as well as shed forth new light. In 1517 an angry Martin Luther nailed his protest to the door of the Wittenberg Cathedral. After being questioned at the Diet at Worms Luther was called to Rome to stand trial for heresy. He would quite surely have been burned if had gone there. But on the way he was kidnapped by the German princes.
Luther was held in seclusion in a castle under guard where he went on to translate the Bible into the common language of the Germans. Similar Biblical awakenings were sparking reform over in France, Bohemia, the Netherlands, and across the channel in England. God's covenant people were now able to read God's Holy Scriptures, or at least portions of them, and evaluate what God was saying to them for themselves. This new Biblical discussion was unchecked by ecclesiastical control of the conversation. So it sent shock waves throughout Western Christendom. The Nicolaitan Church-State power structure guarding the status quo was shaken to its foundations.
Rome struck back with the a vengeance. The Counter Reformation was convened at the Council of Trent. The Roman Catholic powers held intense meetings every year from 1545 to 1563. In 1540 the Pope Paul III gave the Jesuits, named the "Society of Jesus", a papal commission to establish the order, and a blank check. Ignatius Loyola was licensed to kill, to assassinate, to incite wars, to do whatever was necessary to restore power to the papacy of Rome. The dogs of religious war were let loose. And wars within nations and between nations were soon raging throughout Christendom.
The persecutions of good Christian Bible believing people in those times were awful. The Council of Trent launched its counter-reformation and the Church ordained campaign of terror that came out of that was on a scale not seen since the Spanish Inquisition. Germany and Switzerland, the cradle of the Reformation, were subjected to a terrible century of bloodshed. And the Anabaptists were right in the middle of it.
The Biblical awakening of the 1500's did indeed upset the status quo. But the good news was that it brought in a wonderful revival of personal Biblical faith. That personal faith meant people were self-governing in their behaviors and therefore better citizens. But the pagan powers were not interested in this. They wanted to keep the people ignorant, in the dark, and putty in their hands. The Anabaptists were prominent in the Biblical revival of those days. They soon came to be specially targeted for their beliefs. They were branded as "heretics" and came under severe persecution for their practice of what was jeeringly referred to as "re-baptism". Hence the name, "Anabaptists".
These "people of the Book" rose to prominence during the Reformation. But that was not the beginning of their story. Their origins went back a lot further, into the remote past. The trail of the Anabaptists goes back all the way to the First Century, to the Acts of the Apostles, and to Jesus Himself. They had a simple walk of faith with Christ. People of personal faith had always been present. They knew Jesus Christ, . . . personally. These people had been in existence all through the Dark Ages. But who was going to tell their story? Certainly not the medieval Roman Church. And so when the Bible came out during those tumultuous years of the 16th Century these people simply proliferated and rose to prominence on the scene. The profusion of printing presses was now making it impossible for the Church to kill their story. Writings about the Anabaptists could not be prevented from going abroad to the people. Nor could the many written records of their witness be blotted out. And the many Biblical tracts, now coming off the printing presses in great numbers, could not all be apprehended by the Church and burned. These were treasured and passed around, sparking revival throughout the land.
As we look carefully at their extraordinary history we can begin to see that the Anabaptists were ahead of their time. They faced the very same types of challenges that will be seen at the end of the age. We shall be looking into that very important matter further down in this article. Their witness was unto death. Millions of them died at the hands of both the Catholics and the Reformers. It was a holocaust; a holocaust we have never heard of. We can search hard and long but not see their story written in our high school or college history books. Dominionist Christianity has vaunted itself as the victor. And we can well see in Christian broadcasting humble Pilgrim Christian believers who are consecrated and devoted in their faith are not given much airtime. And as we know, the victor gets to write the history books.
There has always been a True Witness, even today, and it will take a "restoration" of the original Truth, given to the Church for any Hope of revival in these last days. Jim
Chapter 41 (Pages 347-349)
The early Mennonites were a unit in the emphasis they placed on the need of scriptural church discipline. Originally the leaders in the Protestant state churches, Luther and Zwingli, were of one mind with them on this point. Within a short period, however, both these reformers, as elsewhere indicated, consented to a close union of the church with the state. In consequence they found scriptural discipline impracticable.
Ulrich Zwingli, in the earlier years of his reformatory labors, taught that discipline, including excommunication, "was instituted by the Lord Himself." As late as April, 1525, Zwingli defended discipline as indispensable. But very soon after the establishment of the Reformed state church in Zurich, Zwingli found that under existing conditions discipline was an impossibility. He began to oppose it and to teach that it is not only unnecessary, but adverse to the best interests of the church. Contrary to his advice, the introduction of discipline was attempted in the Zwinglian churches at Basel, St. Gall, and other places, but was soon abandoned as impracticable.
In a synod of the Reformed state church held at Frauenfeld, in 1529, there was a lengthy discussion on this subject between Zwingli and Dominic Zili, the head pastor of St. Gall, who had obviously been under Swiss Brethren influence. Zili demanded the introduction of discipline, asserting that for a true church it is absolutely necessary. Zwingli, on the contrary, spoke as an opponent of discipline. Replying to Zili, he made the remarkable statement that the practice of excommunication "would cost many preachers," indicating that many ministers were guilty of open transgression. In a synod, held in the following year at St. Gall, Zili again defended the need of discipline, against Zwingli who opposed it on the ground that, as he expressly stated, it would jeopardize the material prosperity of the city of St. Gall. Thereupon Dominic Zili, addressing Zwingli, replied, "I believe that all temporal things should be forsaken and counted but loss for the sake of the eternal Word of God, but according to your statement the divine Word must be abrogated and forsaken in the interests of material prosperity." The well-known Reformed church historian, Emil Egli says: "Zwingli at first approved of excommunication and intended to introduce it, but later rejected and opposed it."
Martin Butzer, the Zwinglian reformer of Strasburg admitted that without the practice of discipline there can be no true Christian church. In other words, he conceded that the national church, in which he was a prominent leader, could not claim the prerogative of a true church. John Calvin, in the earlier period of his reformatory labors, was for a time associated with Butzer at Strasburg, and there is adequate ground for thinking that Calvin's strict views regarding the need of discipline are at least partly to be ascribed to the influence of Butzer. There is furthermore convincing evidence that Butzer was, in turn, influenced by the Swiss Brethren. Calvin, in his treatise on the Schleitheim Confession, admitted that the teaching of the Swiss Brethren on church discipline was scriptural. He remarked that the Brethren had learned and adopted their views on this point from his writings. And yet they had held these teachings from their inception as a church and long before Calvin's renunciation of Romanism.
Butzer, realizing the need of discipline, as indicated above, did his best to introduce it in the Reformed state church in Strasburg, but his attempts to this end were in vain. Calvin, on the other hand, was successful in his efforts toward this end. He enforced church discipline in the city of Geneva. His method of enacting discipline was by coercion through the civil authorities. To a greater degree than Luther, Zwingli, Butzer, or any other reformer, John Calvin succeeded in the endeavor of making the state do the bidding of the state church. Excommunication was practiced in the Geneva state church, and excommunicated persons were not tolerated within the borders of the state.
In the debate held at Zofingen in 1532, a spokesman of the Reformed state church said, that to excommunicate (according to the usage of the Anabaptists) all who were guilty of transgression, was impracticable, for the reason that the result would be that "the number of the excommunicated would exceed that of the pious, and they would exile and drive out the pious."
The Swiss Brethren, as repeatedly stated, never swerved from the position which Zwingli and other reformers had originally shared with them, as concerns scriptural discipline. In the great disputations which, after Zwingli's death, the Brethren had with the leaders of the Protestant state church, the Brethren showed that discipline is a vital characteristic of a true Christian church. "There is no [true] church where there is no excommunication after the manner and method of the apostles," said one of their spokesmen in the disputation of Bern, in 1538. The theologians of the state church, on the contrary, defended the view that under a [nominally] Christian government, where the civil authorities punish wrongdoing, church discipline is not essential. And yet at the same time they expressed regret that discipline could not be practiced in their church.
Menno Simons wrote on church discipline:
It is evident that a congregation or church cannot continue in the salutary doctrine and in a blameless and pious life without the proper use of discipline. Even as a city without a wall and gates, or a field without an enclosure or fence, or a house without walls and doors, so is also a church without the true apostolic exclusion. For it would be open to all deceiving spirits, all godless scorners and haughty despisers, all idolatrous and insolent transgressors, yes to all lewd debauchers and adulterers, as is the case with all the great sects of the world. In my opinion it is a vital characteristic, an honor and a means of prosperity for a true church to practice with Christian discretion the true apostolic exclusion and to observe it carefully with vigilant love according to the teaching of the holy divine Scriptures.
Simons stated the problem quite well. We have long ago departed from the direct teaching on Church discipline and replaced it with "lets keep the system floating with many happy members and big tithes. If we read the N.T. scriptures on discipline, we will lose the majority. We will show our love toward the assembly by accepting anything and everything that they practice, even fornication/adultery/idols/ and we can hope the Lord is progressive also"! Jim
I have been watching Robert Breaker's videos on the pre trib rapture. I find his case logical, scriptural, and compelling. What i would like to know from those that are well versed in this subject, is , are those that are non Jews, excluded from the possibility of being saved, by enduring to the end.? In other words, is Pauls saved through faith era ended for non Jews and hence there is no longer any salvation for the Gentile, after the rapture.?
Thanks for your thoughts. The majority believe in a pre trib, however, the scriptures are quite clear about us being here until the end. We have posted much on the subject on T.O.F.. It is difficult to give an answer to your above question when one's understanding of "rapture" is completely differing than the modern version. The world is filled, currently, with Christians who are being beheaded who were not removed in a pre-trib rapture.
The assemblies have been sold a view that has not prepared them to "endure till the end" but are looking for an escape. I would vote for a pre-trib., it sounds good, but the scriptures are clear on the subject.
There are many who read on this site and may want to give their views and answers to your questions. Thanks again:
Matthew 24 and elsewhere:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
>>>>>>> "after, means after"! After tribulation, and He with gather His Elect from the 4 winds (after, and the elect are still here).
Thanks. As i understand Matthew, Jesus was speaking only to the Jews. It was Pauls job to educate the gentiles as to their fate. I have been avoiding God, and not getting in to religious discussions, but i really thank God that there are Christians on this site.
Thanks for your views. I would PM you if you had a e-mail. If you are even in my woods, call and we will talk it out. Keep seeking and you will find the Answer. Jim
catch me at scottwaye(youknowwhat)outlook.com Thanks brother