Silver for gold -- and vice versa

Fri, Aug 16, 2013 - 4:33pm

The warden said:
"The exit is sold.
If you want a way out,
Silver and gold."

There's been a lot of talk, maybe too much talk... :-) about which precious metal is best to own, why, when, in what ratio (if any, for some). Not a trivial question to ask if one is just beginning to stack -- and not one to ignore if one had at one point tragically lost a sizeable stack in choppy waters on a midnight fishing expedition.

There are economic, monetary, industrial, geopolitical, social and in ALL cases personal considerations -- I cannot hope to cover them all: but I would like to try to start a conversation about them, and eventually dig up more details in future posts. We are all our own 'financial advisers', to a greater or lesser extent we are trying to act as such for our family and friends. It's important to have a solid, well-founded understanding of at least the pillars influencing the decision which metal to choose and in what ratio. And whether and when this decision should be revisited.

Being the Luddite that I am, I do NOT feel comfortable investing my savings in paper representations of legal claims on property I do not physically control – as I see a non-trivial risk in being subordinated if not outright dispossessed of said ‘ownership’ as and when the current monetary paradigm hits a convenient milestone on its lurching path towards its eventual demise (and subsequent transformation). While I do not (as yet) foresee the end of the world as we know it in ALL areas of life, I DO remember, and therefore anticipate the possibility of ‘bail-ins’ on a much more breathtaking scale than we have seen thus far -- at least recently. Perhaps direct registration of shares or physical certificates will help. The fact that I see this as a ‘perhaps’ is enough for me to stick to physical, tangible, directly held assets. But as Ernest Hemingway said, you go broke gradually, then all at once. I don’t think we’ll get a red-striped letter in the mail saying ‘WARNING’ beforehand (any more than we already have, of course) – the entire point of making an (admittedly pretty final) move like this is to have as many people still holding the bag as possible. While general warning signs abound (and will multiply), there will be no text message telling me it’s no longer safe. Year early, minute late and all that. Hence my focus on physical accumulation.

My very first investment in precious metals did not bode well for my future in being a PM bug -- a spouse who vehemently enough disagrees with a particular allocation decision is a powerful impetus for liquidation. It was, to others, a trivial sum -- 50 oz of silver -- but it was powerful enough that it forced me to start over, re-examine all my premises, information and informed predictions about the future. In doing so, I realized that my conclusions and planned course of action were correct. I ultimately convinced my spouse that my efforts to keep a portion of our nest egg in PMs was not founded in specious, get-rich-quick arguments, nor stemmed from a gambling addiction.

Going through the process of checking the premises helps think through a cogent, convincing argument for others as well. In my mind THAT is why TFMR is invaluable - the persistent reader can find ALL kinds of opinions to challenge one's premises. Main Street is called thus for a reason -- it represents a numeric majority of like-minded individuals, who will have a number of shared assumptions and experiences. But in the Forums you will find views to challenge ANY assumption, if you choose to look.

The element of metal allocation that I wanted to focus on (and ask YOU about) is the GSR -- the number of ounces of silver required to get an ounce of gold. My own perspective is that I am currently overweight in silver, and want to increase wealth preservation and decrease risk, and for the moment have no current intent to sink further savings -- unless there are extraordinary circumstances (e.g. silver drops to 14-15 and can ACTUALLY be bought anywhere near those prices). My thinking has been voiced earlier by DPH and others several times -- trade silver for gold as their relative valuation in fiat shifts (and thus, for the time being, their tradable ratio) and gold becomes less expensive in terms of silver. Simple enough, on the surface.

There are some who expect this ratio to drop to (or even below) 1 [you know who you are] -- and some who suggest a ratio around 15:1. There are those who think 15:1 is bollocks.

There are those who think they can identify turning points in the GSR -- Silver: The GSR Bottom Finder

There is a good bit of detailed (if dated) material in this old article from The Moneychanger. It's a REALLY long piece with lots of detail, but I have not had a chance to vet its sources, so DYODD. Despite the title, the 'meat' (swapping metals to increase net ounces held) of the article is at the end.

The GSR is regularly discussed in The setup for the big trade and lots of other threads here. Casey Research seems to dismiss the GSR as an unreliable indicator for investment: Guest Post: The Gold-Silver Ratio – Another Look

And of course there is the MOPE in the media -- I was not going to get into this, but this report was too good to resist:
This August 15th Gold Council report was referenced by Business Insider, and headlined thus --CHART OF THE DAY: Gold Demand Is Evaporating. Very amusing.

"Total demand has fallen to its lowest level in 4 years, owing to a decline in demand for gold for investment related purposes (demand for jewelry and coins continues to grow).

Here's the chart showing total demand going back to the beginning of 2010, wherein you can see that the last two quarters are the weakest we've seen in recent years."

But onto more serious matters. Is it enough to look at a chart like this:

Or does it make sense to consider a chart more like these:

In both cases, do the more recent (20th century) values now represent the 'new normal' -- or are they extreme swings which will revert to the mean?

This one is for people braver/smarter than I (of which I'm told there are many):

Well, at least it does not seem like the demand for gold for investment purposes HERE is likely to evaporate soon...

So, dear Reader -- what, if any direction is YOUR preference? Buy more silver now, expecting the GSR to fall further? Or just the opposite – when S truly HTF, will GSR shoot to eve-of-WWII levels (and beyond -- according to some)? Buy both in some ratio? Swap one for the other NOW? Is the goal larger net value of assets in current fiat, or a higher number of ounces, and are the two the same thing? Does portability figure into anyone else's calculations? How does this calculus change as prices march onward (dare I say HEH?), or conversely if they should fall further?

About the Author


Aug 17, 2013 - 6:43am

Gramp, Silverivalist, & S-Rex,

For some reason, nobody here remembers, or cites this........
"""MUMBAI: The US Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke on his first visit to India discussed issues relating to the banking industry and policy challenges with the Reserve Bank of India Governor Duvvuri Subbarao.

"We discussed some banking issues of mutual interest," Bernanke said in his 100 seconds speech at the portico of the 25-floor Reserve Bank of India on the Mint Street. "It has been very constructive."

Bernanke and the US Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner visited the central bank as part of their trip to promote the Indo-US financial partnership. The first-ever visit by a sitting Fed chairman gains significance amid the domestic regulator's stance towards global banks, which are getting bigger in India, but remain weak at their home turf.""" the beginning of the Indian suppression of gold ownership through imposition of onerous import duties.
It seems obvious to me, as to what was discussed.

Edit: Although import duties had been rising prior to this visit, it was not putting a dent in the imports. After this visit, India apparently "got the message", and much more aggressive hikes followed, one after another.

silver foil hat benque
Aug 17, 2013 - 7:59am

@ benque and T S A

'Allo 'Allo - Exploding Christmas Puddings
Aug 17, 2013 - 8:01am

Dollar revaluation

So could someone please explain to me why the FED won't just put forward a big overnight devaluation of the $ versus other currencies and resolve their problems as the UK did in the 1960's.

Combine it with an instant taper to $0 QE and the effect of equities going up through a devaluation offsets the crash that would otherwise be created by tapering.

House prices get an instant $ fiat price increase on paper, meaning a lower LTV for outstanding mortgages, so the sheeple get to feel happier again, which in turn restarts the ponzi scheme.

The cost to China / Russia etc of buying US fixed assets (mines/ oil companies/ US land etc) with UST bonds gets higher and stops the drain of real assets for paper. Imports get priced higher which reduces their appeal (and the sheeple will blame the foreigners for putting up their prices). Given that it's now clearly evident that the Brics are intent on bypassing the $, I can see no reason why the US would want to allow the gifting of US reserves in exchange for worthless paper with no foreseeable future benefit.

The above scenario ties in nicely with this weeks news of the 60% cash purchasers of real estate, JPM going long on PMs, and a sudden inflation spike would be easier for the Govt / Fed to deal with than watching the system fall apart and trying to deal with constant manipulation.

So where's the flaw??

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:09am


the flaw is that the only thing really keeping the $ up is it's role as reserve currency, because oil is sold in $'s, but you devalue them and the oil countries will be pushed to, if not drop it, make it a possible to buy oil in other currencies and that would simply kill the $ anyway.

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:09am

I think I'll keep my silver, thanks

Late's diner offers 1964 prices to customers paying with silver coins

MANITOWOC — Late’s diner on S. Ninth Street is giving people a reason to break open their piggy banks and empty out their pockets for loose change.Late’s Burgers — known for their deep-fried cheese curds and burgers — is offering customers 1964 pricing if they come in and pay with coins minted before 1965.

...When Birkenstock converted a menu to show 1964 pricing, there were some pretty radical changes. For instance, hamburgers were 12 cents and 100 pieces of chicken could be bought for $4.55.

Cash for gold? That is sooo 2009. More like a burger for silver. I'll keep my silver, thanks.

boatman wouldyoubelieve...
Aug 17, 2013 - 8:15am

its coming wouldyoubelieve.....

not tomorrow...........but in 3-6 years

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:20am

no problems here

ever since i totally 'recovered' my computer..............all issues with this site went away.

avast, norton, PCTOOLS and malwarebites could not clean it.

and it was not a registry issue.

next time i'll back up my favorites buttons.......since i use them like a filing cabinet.

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:42am

Silver foil hat - Allo Allo

I love that show! Absolutely hilarious!!!! Never missed an episode, and had every one on VHS, sadly lost after many moves. Happy it's easily found on you-tube.

Motley Fool
Aug 17, 2013 - 8:46am

Re: Site issues

Any updates as to when they will be resolved?

Today marks day 4 that I am unable to open the site from my IP, and am forced to used proxy's.

Edit : What I find interesting is that the IP I posted this comment from was also just banned, having just got this :

"Sorry, has been banned."

, when reloading the page.

This would make the 5th or 6th IP I have noticed this happen too shortly after commenting.

Curious coincidence , no?

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:51am


don't kid yourself. you're not THAT important.

your current IP address was probably banned because you've been using a public proxy. Public proxy servers get used for "abuse" all the time and many of them get automatically banned by web hosts to prevent attacks as soon as they're detected as such.

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:58am

Regarding site issue's

You're becoming one :-p

Seriously though, if the site wanted you banned you'd be gone and unable to use your avatar or account.'re here for now. Have a nice day.

Aug 17, 2013 - 9:00am

A few billion here, a few billion there, impairment everywhere

We take a closer look behind the door of the impairment charge which has wreaked billion-dollar havoc on the gold mining industry.

They were punishing: Multi-billion dollar losses for gold miners following gold's fall from over $1,600 in January to under $1,300 in June. Operating margins were squeezed, to be sure, but it was impairment charges that cut most in terms of shear dollar value of losses. One after the other, gold miners, majors among them, reported massive, non-cash losses related to changing asset values driven by gold's decline in their latest financial reports.

“Every quarter a public company has to go through assessment of impairment indicators,” Braunsteiner said. “It's part of their normal process. You look at the environment and say, 'Is there something here that is telling us we should have a closer look at impairment.'” The indicator of the moment, of course, is the price of gold. It could also be, to name three top factors, significant changes in the cost of labour, foreign exchange rates or project construction costs, that is cost overruns as is so often the case.

But since the price of gold is always fluctuating, how do miners determine what price change matters?

Aug 17, 2013 - 9:01am


Hi...long time no see. did you recover your computer?

You talking about going back in time to another starting point before your trouble's started?

Aug 17, 2013 - 9:13am

@Motley Fool, that IP address

@Motley Fool, that IP address is not being banned by us. It's nowhere to be found in our logs. If it's being banned, it is happening somewhere upstream from us. I'd recommend running a traceroute ( from your IP to to see where the problem might exist.

Also if you visit on, it is flagged as a recent forum spam source. I'm sure this has something to do with it:

Motley Fool
Aug 17, 2013 - 9:19am


Thanks for the reply.

I have already moved on from that Ip to another, so can't run that trace anymore. I will do so when the next one gets banned.

I would prefer just being able to use my IP, which is also my ISP's ip, which means it being unable to access the site means more than a million people in my country can't access it either.

From my IP I can't trace or even ping this site. :/

Aug 17, 2013 - 9:54am

Motley Fool, send me a

Motley Fool, send me a private message with information on which ISP you use and the current IP address from which you're unable to trace or ping. Thanks.

Aug 17, 2013 - 10:05am

Saturday Morning News: Markets


Bond Outflows Shouldn't Panic Investors - Liam Plevin, Wall Street Journal
Bernanke: Buy 1 Suit, Get 3 Free - Vitaliy Katsenelson, Institutional Investor
Here's One Option for the Fed: Taper, But Tiny - Ylan Mui, Washington Post
Understanding Conflicting Market Signals - Jason Haver, Minyanville
Delete All of Your Investing Apps Now - Chuck Jaffe, MarketWatch
Beepocalypse's Harsh Economic Sting - Kathryn Jackson Fallon, Fiscal Times
$1 Trillion Fraud? Skeptics Attack China's GDP - Arjun Kharpal, CNBC
China's Economy Slows, But Its Influence Rises - Joshua Kurlantzick, CFR
An IMF Historian's Crusade To Whitewash Its History - Benn Steil, Forbes
The Dark Side of North Dakota's Oil Boom - Blaire Briody, The Fiscal Times
A Question That Can Change Your Life - Harvard Business Review

Is The Bullish Stock Market Story Set To Change? - Adam Shell, USA Today
A Very Real, and Growing, Dollar Funding Problem - Jeffrey Snider, RCM
The Math of Tapering Is Big For Stock Market - Brett Arends, MarketWatch
Dow Sheds 225 Points - E.S. Browning & Kaitlyn Kiernan, Wall Street Journal
London 'Whale' Case Lands Another Minnow - David Dayen, New Republic
Bankruptcy: Detroit Loses, Wall Street Wins - Editorial, New York Times
DOJ Grounds AMR/US Airways: This Is Good - Editorial, Los Angeles Times
American-U.S. Airways Merger Denial Not Justified - Editorial, Investor's
The First Hires at Google, Subway & Amazon Look Back - Louise Lee, WSJ
Entrepreneurship & Prosperity: Peace Implications - Carl Schramm, APS
Fed's Taper Signal Revives Wall Street Memory - Desmond Lachman, RCM
Bernanke: 'Greatest Central Banker In U.S. History'? - Mark Hendrickson
Bernanke Saved World, But Hurt Retirees - Kermit Zieg, Washington Post
Who Will Tell the Full Truth On Deficit? - Paul Krugman, New York Times
The Counterfeiting And Theft Underlying Stimulus - Jeff Dorfman, Forbes

Risk Is Not a Four-Letter Word - Herb Greenberg, TheStreet
The Scary Economic News Behind Egypt's Bloodbath - Carol Matlack, BBW
Mark Mobius on 'Fed Chief' Summers: The Real Surprise - MarketWatch
Debt of One Quadrillion Yen? Not a Problem - William Pesek, Bloomberg
Europe's False Recovery - Rana Foroohar, TIME
Easy Credit Dries Up, Choking Growth in China - Keith Bradsher, NY Times
China Reform Anxiety: Mistrust Comes Next - Yao Yang, Project Syndicate
Telltale Signs Your Employees Are Job Hunting - Anne Fisher, Fortune
The Perils of Sitting Down at Work All Day Long - The Economist
News Never Made Money, And Is Unlikely To - Jack Shafer, Reuters
The Future of Energy: Get Off the Grid and Onto 'The Cube' - Minyanville

Aug 17, 2013 - 10:08am

Back to the GSR.....

The beauty of the GSR trade, for those fearful of falling off the PM train, is that they can switch between metals and capitalise/cash-in on the relative strength of one metal, without ever leaving the train. My own preference is to not let my weighting in either, to get too light or out of balance, but to make about a half of my portfolio available to this trade.

The nature of the trade is that there may be nothing to do for years, it is certainly not day-trading.

The 2011 silver spike netted a GSR of 30, while just recently we hit 67. Those are useful terms of reference, and we are currently at 59. If it rises again above 60 in the near future, then it is a great point at which to shift from gold to silver, for those who are light on silver. Anything above 55 is good.

Below 45, is a good point to consider to start buying back gold with silver. It depends both on one's preferences, and also on past trading decisions.

I would quote Motley here, in good spirit. He would advise that silver will be left behind in any gold re-set. What I do know, is that if I faced a GSR of 300, that I would be divesting my gold in a hurry for silver. Don't ever be without gold, because this scenario is certainly possible, even if only for a short time, because I solidly agree with Motley that any official revaluation will be for gold only.

Edit: it would then be for the market to re-price silver. The market may take a while to do that, and will likely overshoot as well for a while. The day after a gold re-set, swap some for silver and enjoy the game.

tmosley Maximillion
Aug 17, 2013 - 10:08am

@Max: The US imports almost


The US imports almost all consumer goods. Devaluing the dollar would instantly impoverish almost everyone. Not to mention that one devaluation deserves another, and EVERYONE outside the US would dump their dollars for "safe" currencies, initiating hyperinflation.

Aug 17, 2013 - 10:22am

I have five pre-set values at

I have five pre-set values at which I will trade my silver for gold, and a further five values where I will trade my gold for silver. Each time we pass one of those values, I take 1/6th of my stack of that metal and trade it for the other. In this manner, I never sell all of my stack of one or the other, while still being able to profit.

Note that I just started this recently, and only imposed the "keep 1/6th" rule after I traded away nearly all my gold when the GSR got so ridiculously high.

Looking forward to seeing it get down to 40, so I can stock up on some gold.

Aug 17, 2013 - 10:31am

Saturday Morning News: World

Democracy in Egypt Can Wait - Charles Kupchan, New York Times
How Did Egypt Turn So Dark? - Shibley Telhami, Washington Post
Sunni-Shia Terror Ties Turn to Civil War - Matthew Levitt, Foreign Policy
Four Leading Arab Cities in Flames - Rami Khouri, The Daily Star
Merkel 3.0: Stasis You Can Believe In - Almut Moller, Der Spiegel
The World's Weirdest Borders - Michael Hanlon, The Spectator
All Coups End in Petty Tyranny - Daniel Hannan, Daily Telegraph
Russia's In, America's Out and Germany's Up - Jakub Grygiel, FPRI
Hezbollah Under Fire - Bilal Saab, Foreign Affairs
The Steady Destruction of Europe - Juliane Mendelsohn, The European
Israel Forgets Its Own Borders - Gershom Gorenberg, American Prospect
China's War Time Past Needs Scrutiny - Rana Mitter, Japan Times
Why Russia's Changing Its Tune on Iran - Nikolas Gvosdev, WPR
What's Harming Africa's Poor? Funerals - Roberto Ferdman, Quartz
It's a Greek Neo-Nazi Beach Party! - Gavin Haynes, Vice

An Aggression Against All of Lebanon - The Daily Star
No End in Sight to the Eurozone Mess - Daily Telegraph
Egypt: The Disaster on Europe's Door - The Guardian
Abe's Mistaken War Speech - Japan Times

The Dangers of Intervention in Syria (PDF) - Cato Institute
Algeria's Critical Juncture - Institute for Near East & Gulf Military Analysis
Everything You Need to Know About U.S. Aid to Egypt - ProPublica
Syria: Deterioration or Compromise? - Oxford Research Group

Obama Doctrine: Speak Softly and Carry No Stick - James Traub, FP
Egypt Crisis Unlikely to Damage U.S. Interests - Paul Richter, LA Times
Obama's Dangerous Passivity on Egypt & Syria - Jackson Diehl, Wash Post
Egypt's Blood, America's Complicity - Amr Darrag, New York Times
Obama: The Citizen of the World President - Elliott Abrams, Commentary
America Pivots to Asia, Europe Arms It - Robbin Laird, The Diplomat
Boycotting Olympics Won't End Russian Homophobia - Julia Ioffe, TNR
Egyptian Elite Succumb to the Hate Virus - Ulrike Putz, Der Spiegel
Egypt's Sexual Assault Epidemic - Bel Trew, Al Jazeera
What Getting Jumped by Muslim Bros. Looks Like - A. Ismail, Animal
Snowden Doomed to Life in a Capsule - Michael Bohm, Moscow Times
How to Beat al-Qaeda in Yemen - Gregory Johnsen, Bloomberg
Bosnia & Syria: Intervention Then and Now - Michael Ignatieff, Boston Rev.
Restoring Israel to Greatness - Jonathan Pollard, Jerusalem Post
All of the World's Architecture Is in China - Allison Meier, Atlas Obscura

What Obama Misunderstands About Egypt - Jeffrey Goldberg, Bloomberg
A Lack of Spine on Egypt - Eugene Robinson, Washington Post
Egypt's New Ruler - Mike Giglio & Christopher Dickey, Newsweek
It Only Gets Worse from Here - Issandr El Amrani, The Arabist
Cutting Aid to Egypt Would Backfire - David Francis, The Fiscal Times
Obama's Slap at Egypt Harms Our Interests - Benny Avni, New York Post
America Has Not Lost Egypt - Ryan Evans, The National Interest
The 'To Hell with Them' Doctrine - Jonah Goldberg, National Review
Syria's War Takes Hold of Lebanon - Aryn Baker, Time
Libya's Unarmed Revolutionaries - Fadil Aliriza, Foreign Policy
Can Nigeria's Leader Do the Right Thing? - Orji Uzor Kalu, CNN
U.K. Conservative Party Is Bleeding Members - Daniel Hannan, Telegraph

James Burke
Aug 17, 2013 - 10:50am



Americans tend to hold the view that Canadians, their neighbor to the north, are staid, bland, conservative and tend to look down on American culture. All of it false. Canadians enjoy plastering tattoos all over their bodies just as well as the American youth does. One thing that is true is that Canadians adore their socialism and their forced language laws and forced divorce laws (Men: before you go to court, bring your helmet).

Aug 17, 2013 - 11:15am


"Canadians adore their socialism and their forced language laws..."

Oh goodie. How can I put this?

Une meprise sur le sentiment public.

Aug 17, 2013 - 11:30am

Remember the Sequester?

Just a quick story...

So we have a popular National Park in the area i live. In discussing the amount of tourists around for this season, I remarked that it is a very strong year for visitors. Many observations points to this. I was telling this to a gentleman who owns a 'Welcome Center' locally, and prides himself at being 'in the know' about such things. (After all, it is his business. )

He remarked,

" Everyone you talk with has a different opinion. ( about #'s of tourists) Interesting you say that because the Park data is down by 15%."

"Really?" I replied.

" Everything I see points to BIG numbers of visitors." ( With many local business owners agreeing)

Then it hit me... the National Park was CLOSED for over a month later in the season due to the Sequester!!! ( Hmm, missing 15% perhaps?)

This, with EVERY bit of roadway and parking lot in the Park recently re-paved through the Federal Stimulus Program... While our state highways to get to the Park are deteriorating to a condition of not even being safe.

The Park service said it had to remain closed because of lack of funding (due to the Sequester) for Restroom and trash facilities.

This generated an outcry from local business owners fearing lost revenue. The Chamber of Commerce ended up filling the budget gap for the Park Service in an agreement to open the Park.

Wow. Is it just me, or are these dirty games being played? The public is being abused over and over by their handlers and keep making excuses for them, coming back for more.

Just a short story from Real town USA. Boots on the ground stuff.

twolfe81 Motley Fool
Aug 17, 2013 - 11:45am

Getting around ban


Don't know if this will help your case, but my ISP helped me get around without proxies while looking into the issue (the site is banned from TELUS locally to Calgary, AB both on DSL and over their cell network for some reason they can't figure out though works on other cell and ISP networks fine)...go into your Network Connection settings...not sure system/OS you are using, but in Windows case, you go into local area connection properties if hooked up by wire to the router/modem (or can try it under wireless settings too I believe). The Internet Protocol Version 4 (TCP/IPv4) connection, if you highlight it and click on properties, has an option at the bottom for "Obtain DNS server address automatically". If you change that to "Use the following DNS server addresses" and for preferred and alternate put in and which are major search servers for Google and Yahoo as I understand it, it will force any DNS lookup to them rather than to your local DNS catalog. You can do the same by putting those into DNS on the wifi settings of the network you're connected to for an iPad so the same principle should work for mobiles (",")

Hope this helps!

Motley Fool
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:47pm


Thanks, I will attempt that.

Edit : And it worked. Thank you. :)

Aug 17, 2013 - 1:10pm

Harvey's Up!

  • Harvey: The total of the 3 major gold bullion dealers( Scotia , HSBC and JPMorgan) in its Comex gold dealer account saw an increase in gold inventory tonight to 20.176 tonnes of gold. Brinks continues to record a low of only 4.13 tonnes in its dealer account. We have recorded the 30th consecutive day for negative GOFO rates and the 6 month GOFO rate increased in negativity and landed back into negative territory at -.00500%. The 16th of August, we gained a large 2.4 tonnes of gold at the GLD vaults.
  • GoldCore: Billionaire George Soros and Daniel Loeb sold their entire SPDR stakes in the past quarter, filings showed yesterday. Billionaire investor John Paulson cut his gold ETF holding for the first time since 2011 and it is believed he did this due to the falling gold price and negative media coverage.
  • GoldCore: Physical demand helped push August futures on the Comex in New York above the December contract for the first time on August 2, compared with trading at a discount before then. The three-month lease rate, reflecting the cost of borrowing gold, reached a four-year high on August 7 also signalling tight physical supplies globally.
  • Sumit Roy: The divergence between physical and paper demand couldn’t be more stark, according to WGC’s quarterly report. The second quarter of 2013 saw the worst performance for gold in close to 100 years as prices plummeted by 23 percent.
  • Bill Savadove: China began using the Arctic shipping route that could 'Change the face of world trade'. DS: Having the Arctic route open helps for at least part of the year for moving oil from East to West if the Suez Canal gets shut down, which is likely to happen at any time.
  • Matthew Boesler: JP Morgan in a note to clients Thursday titled, "Gold and the Denver play: Gold Shrugs Off the Paulson Sale; Buy the Bounce,"
  • John Hathaway: Gold is oversubscribed by as much as 100 to 1 because of futures and derivatives, a short squeeze is on, and there is growing distrust of the New York Commodity Exchange and the London Bullion Market Association and people want the phiz.
  • Harvey: Michael Pento correctly believes that the Federal Reserve cannot stop monetizing the uSA debt and the free market for interest rates is already front running what will happen in a few months. When Bernanke tapers 10 billion or 20 billion dollars from $85 billion per month, then the 10 yr rate will skyrocket sending stock markets crashing as well as our big bank underwriters of interest rate swaps. DS: What Harvey says is the plan.
  • Egon von Greyerz: I’ve been thinking about the end game. The conclusion I have come to is that this will go on for a long period of time because there won’t be a conventional end to the coming chaos. Total liabilities in the eurozone banking system are 32 trillion euros, which is about 3 times eurozone GDP. If we add in unfunded liabilities, the debt/GDP ratios in most countries is around 500%, and even as high as a staggering 1000%.
  • Egon von Greyerz: A bankrupt world is now headed into a period of frightening chaos, and banks and governments will not survive what is coming. he fiat currencies will be in collapse. There is a major risk of war breaking out in the next few years.
  • Sandeep Jaitley: He expects silver to go into backwardation soon.
  • Jeff Nielson: The One Bank launched one of its most savage assaults on bullion markets throughout the entire course of this 13-year bull market, causing all-time record demand for gold – while the market for its (fraudulent) paper-called-gold collapsed as paper and physical decoupled.
  • Keith Barron: Asian central banks are requesting that their gold, some of which has been stored in the West, be sent to Asia. This is what is causing the short covering rally in gold.
All this and more on... The Harvey Report! DayStar

Aug 17, 2013 - 2:42pm

@Spartacus Rex

If you mean my post re property law as to the general rule of possession, I'll point you in the direction you should go:

This is the secondary source used in California, by most judges and attorneys. I pointed you to the table of contents page for the section on personal property. It is, as you can see, exhaustive, and covers the concepts, and references controlling case and statutory authority.

My simple generalization, that is, possession of an item of personal property is proof of ownership, is the general rule. Note well that mere possession, while generally proof enough of ownership, can be questioned and defeated by one with a superior claim. However, since most personal property lacks a paper trail of being recorded at the county recorder, etc., that is why I mentioned the general rule.

That you want to insult me with ad hominem attacks upon my intelligence, speaks more to your shortcomings. I really enjoy a good intellectual discussion, so please, by all means, send your comments to me, post them, what ever you want. If you can please avoid the personal attacks, your points are most certainly likely to be taken with a better tone and will be more useful to the community, for sure.

As for your other comments, based on the Private Enterprise Zones, I will go back and look over your comments, organize a concise reply, and we can continue that discussion on that page.

In the spirit of this wonderful community here at tfmr, I ask you kindly to refrain from personal attacks, please. State your opinion, tell me I am wrong, fine. But the name calling and insults is not helpful to the discussion at all. If you insist on dragging the conversation into a no-win ad hominem back and forth, then go ahead right now and claim victory, for I shall not engage you or waste my time. There are other important things to do than highlight your personality issues.

Aug 17, 2013 - 2:43pm

Mr. Fix

Frankly, I'm amazed at your even-mindedness in the face of a clueless wife (no disrespect to you). The only benefit that I can see is spiritual growth -- inasmuch as dealing with such a situation is ultimately humbling, thereby wearing away the proud ego we all have to deal with sooner or later.

I don't think I'm a misogynist, but dealing with many "entitled" women over the decades has made me more gun shy as the years have passed. I made a conscious decision in my youth not to marry. This was based upon observation of how our society, through marketing and advertising (think Bernays), was seducing women away from being supportive to their husbands and instead enticing them with baubles and beads.

Now, I'm not saying that this is the exclusive domain of the fairer sex, but it's definitely been a trend during my sixty-two years on this mud ball.

Thankfully, Wonderer chimed in and softened my initial response to your first post.

Now there's a gal I'd be proud to be with!

Again, Mr Fix, I am in no way criticizing you. In fact, I admire your stoicism.

You're a better man than me, Gunga Din.

Nick Elway
Aug 17, 2013 - 4:05pm

@twolf @MF Getting around DNS bans

Here's a good list of open DNS (Domain Name Servers)

It has the Google addresses as and (I don't think is good)

Here are the tracks from nslookup on my machine in the world of qwest dsl (Bold is what I typed) (It appears my qwest modem is blocking DNS lookup for

Default Server: qwestmodem.domain.actdsltmp
Server: qwestmodem.domain.actdsltmp
DNS request timed out.
timeout was 2 seconds.
DNS request timed out.
timeout was 2 seconds.
*** Request to qwestmodem.domain.actdsltmp timed-out
> server
Default Server:
Non-authoritative answer:

I put the good address for (and in my "hosts" file so this machine won't use the default DNS to find the address for tfmetalsreport again.


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