Friday Open Thread

289
Fri, Nov 16, 2012 - 9:08am

I'm going to be out and unavailable for most of the day. Here's an open thread for you but, as usual, please try to keep the conversation civil and productive.

Just a couple of things...

In case you missed it, here's a reprint of the "update" I posted to the previous thread. Nothing earth-shattering and certainly not meant to scare you, just a heads up:

5:00 pm EST 11/15/12 UPDATE:

The metals have continued to slowly improve this afternoon from the savage beating they took this morning. This is quite positive for us Good Guys. However, I feel obligated to draw your attention to something that has me concerned.

Did you see this ZH article earlier today? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-15/gold-tumbles-same-dedicated-seller-reemerges. This "dedicated seller" thing set off some alarm bells for me as it reminded me of the period back in late September and early October when we were all similarly flummoxed by a Cartel "Iron Dome" near $1780 in gold and $35 in silver. I wrote about in several posts but summarized the problem on this post from Thursday, October 4: https://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/4239/deja-vuall-over-again.

Here's the problem...That week of desperate, regular Cartel capping culminated with things breaking down on October 5 and the metals have been under consistent pressure ever since. Of course, past isn't always prologue and history doesn't always repeat, but I'm the one who is paid to recognize patterns and this is clearly one we must keep watching. The main level on which to concentrate would seem to be $1705 in gold. A break there and it will become likely that gold sees at least a re-test of the lows of 11/5, near $1670-1680.

This is no reason to be scared, just cautious. Let's see what happens tomorrow.

And you have missed this, too. I certainly did. The Comex has decided to lower initial gold and silver margins again, effective at the close next Tuesday. It's a pretty significant drop, too, with the gold initial margin declining from $9,113 to $7,425 or 18.5%. The silver initial margin was reset to $12,100 from $16,875 for a drop of over 28%. Very interesting move given the recent volatility and high open interest, especially in silver. Here are the rest of the details: https://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/cme-margins-idUSL3E8MF6LY20121115

OK, that's all the time I have for now. I'll type up and post a full weekly recap tomorrow morning so please be sure to check back over the weekend. As for today, hang in there, keep the faith and buy some physical.

TF

About the Author

Founder
turd [at] tfmetalsreport [dot] com ()

  289 Comments

Groaner
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:09am

PPT going to let the Dow close down again today?

Bernank must have ran out of ink the last 2 weeks.

Dimeboy
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:11am

Nat Gaz

Hey Shnoz, I know our gas utility keeps pressure in the lines locally by electric pump, but has diesel generator backup in some primary locations. Other locations actually have gas powered generators to keep the primary gas moving which seems illogical except that they can draw from the back pressure in the primary feeder pipe-lines. In a widespread power outage like we had in 2003 (3 days, 20 states, 2 provinces) we still had gas to all the houses & businesses but I was told that it wouldn't have lasted much longer than that across the board. Same with the telco land lines. If diesel deliveries failed or the upstream pressure from out of state droped, then the generators stop and the local gas pressure drops to some, and eventually to all if the outage is widespread enough and long enough. That being said, a natgas generator (and bar-b-q for that matter) are great to have if the problem is local and reasonably short. The NG supply could easily outlast the available petroleum distallates available for a traditional or portable genset, but there are no guarantees. I have both. If things get bad, no one is going to likely try and steal the NG unit, but they might go after the copper. Oh, and you'll have house guests....

An NG generator sized properly for your house is an excellent investment for the most part. Do not skimp on the Transfer Switch or even have a second in reserve so you can keep your panels lit. There are usually no outlets on a ground mounted unit, it mounts on a pad just like a central A/C unit. If the lights go out over the continent and stay out, eventually all power sources will fail (a'la' One Second After) unless you've got yourself a small nuclear plant of your own.

القراع عصفور
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:11am

my computer is under attack

don't know if i will be able to keep posting. if i disappear, its not because i was run off. three things.


1) find your voices - you have to save a soul to save your own.

2) feed the Turd.

3) buy silver - its the bastards weakest point.

Rolling Stones - Sympathy for The Devil ( Live 1969 Altamont

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah

GDP
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:20am

The lastest from Santa...

BTFD?

The legendary Jim Sinclair sent an email alert to subscribers tonight, warning that all hell is about to break loose in the form of currency induced cost push inflation. Sinclair warns that the dollar index is headed towards .72 before crashing through long term support, gold is headed to $3,500 and beyond, and that the Fed will print to infinity to prevent a collapse of the Eurozone.

Nana
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:23am

Banks told by Fed to test for 12% unemployment

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/banks-told-by-fed-to-test-for-12-unemp...

Banks told by Fed to test for 12% unemployment?

12%???? It IS and has been above 12% for years.........

robov
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:24am

Too Many $1700 calls

You know the monkeys will be gunning for a close blow $1700 and probably $32 silver. Trying real hard right now.

Groaner
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:25am

I wonder when the monkeys will attack.. duhh

nothing to see here Bart.. look the other way

Big Buffalo
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:25am

Gold

Losing/lost the $1715 battle. Just pulled silver along with it. Crossing fingers Silver will hold the line at $32.08

¤
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:26am

Cashing In on the New Gold Rush

The Gold Investing Economy

Demand for gold investments is now a global phenomenon, creating a new, multibillion-dollar demand wave rife with opportunities for entrepreneurs, savers -- and for speculators. Here's a closer look at the world's new love affair with gold.

Mining

High-quality gold deposits are getting harder to find. The industry has spent billions to dig deeper underground or to open mines in politically volatile countries or remote regions, such as Barrick Gold's mine at the top of the Andes. Open-pit mines often crush and chemically treat one ton of rock to get a gram of gold, says Morningstar equity analyst Joung Park. Higher gold prices mean these projects can pay off, but the biggest beneficiaries are skilled geologists and mine workers, who have seen wages skyrocket. Graduates of South Dakota School of Mines & Technology now earn more than those of Harvard University. "If you have a geology degree, you're doing great," Park says.

Transport, Vault Space

The world is pouring its assets into gold at a rate of $77 billion per year, according to the World Gold Council. One result is a building boom by companies that transport and store the precious metal. In London, Brink's Co. recently opened its second vault in two years, while Malca-Amit Global opened the second vault at the Hong Kong International Airport. The proximity to Asia's air-trade routes is no coincidence. "There's still a need to set up an Asian hub for physical gold," Scotiabank's Sunil Kashyap told Bloomberg News. A vault at Singapore's airport opened in 2010.

Banks

In the U.S., sales of gold come mostly from coin dealers and Internet sites. In much of the rest of the world -- notably Germany -- your local bank teller can sell you gold bars. "Financial institutions are trying different ways to market gold," says Martin Murenbeeld, chief economist at DundeeWealth. In China and Vietnam, banks have launched innovative gold savings plans. Customers there save regularly in bank accounts backed by physical gold just as American workers invest each month in retirement plans.

Gold Vending Machines

For those who'd rather not deal with a bank teller, there's always a vending machine. Thomas Geissler, the founder of Gold to Go, says 47,000 people have bought gold bars, coins or trinkets from its "gold ATMs" in 40 locations worldwide. Many ATMs are near tourist attractions -- including, soon, Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin. In Dubai, the ATM sells a 5-gram gold trinket with an image of the Burj Khalifa, the world's tallest building.

Trading Boom

Gold is now traded in far more places than it used to be. The 10-year-old Shanghai Gold Exchange saw its trading volume rise 40 percent per year from 2004 to 2011. BullionVault, a leading spot for online traders, claims 41,500 active customers holding $2.2 billion in bullion on the platform -- more than the amount held by Brazil's central bank.

Gold-plated Gadgets

For a few wealthy consumers, there's apparently no object that can't be improved by covering it in gold. A gold-plated iPhone 5 is the top seller, fetching 2,695 British pounds ($4,300), for online boutique Goldstriker International, says founder Stuart Hughes. He sells gold-plated phones, computers and even cars -- mostly to customers in China and Hong Kong. Stephen Polsky, owner of Maryland-based Metro Plating & Polishing Inc., says he's been hired to gold-plate car logos, bathroom fixtures and even -- as a promotion for a vacuum company -- a vacuum cleaner. (Its cost: $1 million.)

Fraud Opening

It's hard to counterfeit gold coins from reputable mints, DundeeWealth's Murenbeeld says. So the dishonest are often attracted to gold jewelry, which is harder to value. In May, the Better Business Bureau warned of dealers cheating consumers who sell gold and jewelry at temporary, traveling expos, which can evade strict local regulations. The bureau advises getting several quotes on your gold before selling it. In India, where jewelry is a common way of investing in gold, the government is pushing to require that all jewelry be marked by a reputable source.

ETF Explosion

A record amount of gold is held in exchange-traded funds -- about 2,600 metric tons, roughly equal to the world's total gold production, says HSBC chief commodities analyst James Steel. The biggest by far is the U.S.-incorporated $74 billion SPDR Gold Trust, offered by State Street. ETFs are also growing in countries where traditionally buyers have preferred physical gold. India's seven gold ETFs hold $1.7 billion, with the largest run by Goldman Sachs. China's first fund launched last year, and more are on the way. Steel says the amount of gold in ETFs doesn't fluctuate as much as the price of gold, suggesting many ETF owners have a "buy and hold strategy."

The Switzerland of Asia

Switzerland dominates the business of refining and storing gold bars, despite the fact that three-fifths of gold investment demand now comes from Asia. Singapore is making a bid to become the Switzerland of Asia's gold trade. The city-state's gold demand rose 177 percent last year, according to GFMS Ltd. An elimination of a tax on investment-grade gold, which went into effect on Oct. 1, is designed to attract gold traders and refiners.

Designer Gold Bars

In much of the world, gold isn't just an investment -- it's a gift to celebrate births, weddings and holidays. So PAMP, one of Switzerland's largest refiners, has started making gold bars tailored to individual tastes: A "Hello Kitty" gold bar for the Korean market; coins and bars that mark the 60th anniversary of the "Peanuts" comic; and pendants and bars on such themes as the Chinese lunar calendar, hummingbirds and flowers. For the fashion conscious, there's even a bar with a heart drawn by designer Jean Paul Gaultier.

www.bloomberg.com

Groaner
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:28am

Only 2200 contracts dumped on silver in 5 minutes.

just your typical joe six pack trader.

Nigel Black
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:28am

here we go again

same shit, different day

dgstage
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:28am

The Smash

They were 30 minutes late today. That four days now, and Groaner its not just Bart.

tpbeta
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:28am

That was predictacble

Be lucky to get it below $32

Grublux
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:30am

smackdown

IN Progress

Groaner dgstage
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:30am

I know its not just Bart.

He needs some bigger cahones though..

rl999
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:31am

Faber - Dow down 20% call

I know a lot of us pay attention, and I know the story has been posted numerous times here, but has anyone noticed that the DOW is down about 14% in the last month or so.

Yes, some of the losses occurred before Faber made his call, but has anyone really noticed? It has closed down many days, and it feels like a stealth crash/drop is going on.

Below is a copy of the email I sent to my parents last night.

DOW DROPS 1,008.59 POINTS IN 30 DAYS! (math says 13580/1009=13.46, as in 13.5 % gone in 1 month. While silver and gold may suffer temporary setbacks, at the end of the day they are still the same. they don't become embroiled in adultery scandals, go to war, get used up, etc)
Hawk
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:37am

I would be very cautious

I would be very cautious here. Possible a quick near $20 drop in gold is coming and in silver probably less $0.30-40 cents.

Discount that if gold trades above $1715 for 30 mins.

Tread carefully

HAWK

ReachWest Green Lantern
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:41am

Re: Hostess out of Business

It's the stupidity of these single minded dues-seeking Unions that have wrought great destruction on us all. Now 18,000 plus people lose their jobs and the public is deprived of Twinkies. Truly a sad day - on par with Nov 6th.

There is a sliver of good news in this. Canada still has Twinkies. According to an article in Todays Globe, the owner of the Hostess Brand in Canada, operations will not be affected here .. so come to Canada for ice, snow, cold and a Twinkie.

porkydawky
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:44am

Or not!

Feck me that was harsh!

SilverTree
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:45am
¤
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:46am

Oil bounced a bit higher on the news...

Hamas Escalates - Air Raid Sirens Over Jerusalem

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/16/2012 - 10:00

Markets have come to their senses a little and are selling off as news breaks of a plethora of concerning headlines from Israel:

  • *AIR RAID SIRENS HEARD OVER JERUSALEM
  • *HAMAS CLAIMS FIRED ROCKET TOWARD JERUSALEM AREA, CHANNEL 2 SAYS
  • *HAMAS CLAIMS IT HIT ISRAELI JET OVER GAZA STRIP
  • *HAMAS SAYS FIRED AT ISRAELI PARLIAMENT IN JERUSALEM
  • *FLASH: EXPLOSION HEARD IN JERUSALEM AREA: LOCAL MEDIA

Not good at all...

https://www.zerohedge.com/

Crude Chart

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/crude%20oil%20-%20electronic

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pre-Open Equity Ramp As Algos Track War-Ridden Oil Higher

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/16/2012 - 08:53

Each day we wake and look to the markets for guidance. Typically that guidance means - which easily-leveragable asset class can be pulled (or pushed) to move the US equity markets (in their algo-correlated manner) in which ever direction we need (up as much as possible obviously since the status quo requires it). Sometimes, it's EURUSD, other times it's PMs; today, it is oil's turn! There has been no real escalation in tensions in Israel in the last hour, no news of significance; and yet WTI has popped 1.5% and in an almost perfectly correlated manner, S&P futures have chugged along to the highs of the day to run those stops before the US day-session open. Efficient Markets... Pin Risk... OPEX...

Oil (black) vs S&P 500 futures (red)...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/pre-open-equity-ramp-algos-tra...

Sisyphus
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:47am

May take up day trading

Unfortunately all in (and losing).

May get out and buy daily on smash and sell an hour later on bounce.

This is sheer lunacy.

¤
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:51am

Silverbug food :-)

Silver To Climb 38% In 2013 - "Possibly Over $50/oz" Say GFMS

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/16/2012 - 08:37

Thomson Reuters GFMS has published research that says they project silver prices to rise 38% in 2013 from current levels, as a sluggish global economy increases safe haven demand. The bullish silver GFMS forecast was published on the Silver Institute website yesterday and is unusual as the GFMS have been quiet bearish on silver in recent years despite rising prices. Philip Klapwijk of GFMS said that “a rebound in investment demand stemming from continuing loose monetary policies is expected to drive silver prices towards and possibly over $50 during 2013.” Spot silver has risen over 17% this year overtaking gold’s 10% gain, and paving the way for its third consecutive rise in four years. "Strong investment demand, higher gold prices on the back of monetary easing, rising inflation expectations and the persistence of ultra-low interest rates," are among the factors that will lure buyers to the safety of silver,” said Philip Klapwijk of GFMS. "We are thinking prices will trend higher next year. I'm not convinced that we are going to $50. I think we will definitely see $40 to $45 prices."


Gold Silver Ratio Quarterly – (Bloomberg)


Silver in USD 5 Years – (Bloomberg)

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/silver-climb-38-2013-possibly-...

dropout
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:51am

Too Bad. So Sad. I'm Glad.

Looks like the demise of "Twinkies" is final, unless the brand is sold on, to live another life under new ownership.

Getting together the camping coolers a few years ago, one which hadn't been used for years, contained a package of Twinkies that had to (as nearly as could be ascertained) be at least four years old! They were as good as new! As if they were bought yesterday! Those things must be extraterrestrial, because they sure as hell are not of this world!

And we ate that stuff? Or used to anyway. Really toxic shit. Good riddance. Now what does the 18,500 work force do, to say nothing of the retirees? Can you say handout/bailout? I knew you could. Eat turkey. Be merry. Be thankful.

Expired_Elder_of_Zion rl999
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:54am
القراع عصفور
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:54am

clean out your local coin shop

before the lemmings show up. it is getting dangerous now to have it shipped. at some point, no one will be able to trust any delivered metal arriving to destination - that includes sellers. they will quit selling, when insurance premiums eat up their margins.

at some point LCS owners are going to have a change of heart as well. they will ask themselves why they are trading real honest money for worthless paper.

i believe that we are only weeks away from this.

do not be afraid. if you have been a good boy, your life is definitely about to get a lot better. you do not need much of a stack to get through what's happening. but you should have some form of real money to get you through a rough patch. you guys with the big stacks - it is your duty to share some of your special insight, and good fortune. most people are not bad, or stupid, just have been completely brainwashed.

btw - i will be renting the biggest truck i can get today, and heading north. i can be in Canada in 7 hours. we will not be denied our fucking twinkies. i'm thinking 10-12 bucks per twinkie :-)

hey you bastards, i'm still here:-)

brokerk22
Nov 16, 2012 - 11:01am

Dollar

Until the dollar quits going up we are going nowhere. Dollar up like 8 days in a row now. From October 17 it is now gone from 78 and change to 81.30. Sinclair says it is going to 72. Yeah but when.

¤
Nov 16, 2012 - 11:02am

Black Friday / Twinky Mayhem

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

rl999
Nov 16, 2012 - 11:03am

Faber S&P 20% call

‘”I don’t think markets are going down because of Greece, I don’t think markets are going down because of the fiscal cliff – because there won’t be a fiscal cliff,’ Faber told CNBC’s Squawk Box. ‘The market is going down because corporate profits will begin to disappoint, the global economy will hardly grow next year or even contract, and that is the reason why stocks, from the highs of September of 1,470 on the S&P, will drop at least 20 percent, in my view.”‘

Read More @ DailyReckoning.com.au

OK. S&P 1470 then, 1350 today. 120 points off, or roughly 8%

(1350/1470 = .9184 ~ 92%)

Mr. Fix
Nov 16, 2012 - 11:12am

Contribute

Donate Shop

Get Your Subscriber Benefits

Exclusive discount for silver purchases, and a private iTunes feed for TF Metals Report podcasts!

Key Economic Events Week of 4/15

4/16 9:15 ET Cap Util and Ind Prod
4/17 8:30 ET Trade Deficit (Feb)
4/17 10:00 ET Wholesale Inventories
4/18 8:30 ET Retail Sales (March)
4/18 8:30 ET Philly Fed
4/18 10:00 ET Business Inventories (Feb)
4/19 8:30 ET Housing Starts and Building Permits

Key Economic Events Week of 4/1

4/1 8:30 ET Retail Sales (Feb)
4/1 9:45 ET Markit & ISM Manu PMIs
4/1 10:00 ET Construction Spending (Feb)
4/1 10:00 ET Business Inventories (Jan)
4/2 8:30 ET Durable Goods (Feb)
4/3 9:45 ET Markit & ISM Services PMIs
4/5 8:30 ET BLSBS

Key Economic Events Week of 3/25

3/26 8:30 ET Housing Starts (Feb)
3/27 8:30 ET Trade Deficit (Jan)
3/28 8:30 ET Q4 GDP final guess
3/28 10:00 ET Pending Home Sales (Feb)
3/29 8:30 ET Personal Income (Feb)
3/29 8:30 ET Consumer Spending and Core Infl. (Jan)
3/29 9:45 ET Chicago PMI
3/29 10:00 ET New Home Sales (Feb)

Recent Comments

by Wizdum, Apr 19, 2019 - 11:44pm
by Joseph Warren, Apr 19, 2019 - 7:54pm
by NW VIEW, Apr 19, 2019 - 6:42pm
by zenharmonics, Apr 19, 2019 - 6:22pm