GATA vs The Evil Empire

Mon, Oct 24, 2011 - 10:09am

So there was this "debate" back on Friday...

First of all, I despise staged-for-public-consumption "debates". The format allows for nothing but simple, talking point regurgitation and rarely are the presenters allowed to confront/refute the contentions of their opponent. One guy can say something outrageous like "and unlike my bed-wetting opponent, I don't endorse legalized heroin distribution and beastiality". The "opponent" is likely so focused on what talking point he's going to spew next that he didn't even hear the charges made against him and the "moderator" simply wants to move onto the next question anyway. Thereby, the charges are left hanging in the air and the viewer is left with the impression that "maybe that one guy really is a nervous, dog-humping junkie".

And so, last Friday, one of these "debates" took place at an event called "The Silver Summit" in Spokane, Washington. The "opponents" were Bill Murphy of GATA and Jeff Christian of the CPM Group. I think by now you aware of which side of the manipulation debate I fall on. However, in the spirit of full disclosure and free information, I present below the entire debate. A few caveats before you watch:

1) As described above, the format stinks. There should have been more free interaction between Bill and Jeff.

2) It's only 30 minutes long. This should easily have been at least 90 minutes. 

3) The highlight of the entire video might just be the blonde that introduces it. Talk about hard assets!

4) As much as you might hope/pray, Bill never once sprints at Jeff and takes him down AFL-style. How he controlled the temptation to do so is beyond me.

The Great Silver Debate - Manipulation: Fact or Fiction? - GATA vs. CPM Group

Peter Grandich weighs in:

And then there's this from the FT, too:

At the end of the day, you can believe what you choose to believe. However, if it is widely accepted that central banks actively manipulate the currency markets (interventions) and bond markets (QE), why is it so hard to believe that they "manage" the price of gold, too?

Have a great Monday. TF

About the Author

turd [at] tfmetalsreport [dot] com ()


usk · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:18am

SVM Short squeeze

SVM up 16.35% and climbing with volume. KPMG report is out and clears the company. Perhaps this short squeeze will change the mood in the miners.

smcsmc · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:22am

You are quite right about the

You are quite right about the blond. Hard to concentrate on the "debate" after seeing her. 

SilverFocker · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:23am

The madness

of it all makes people say and do strange thing's............go long until you can't.

RedRover · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:27am

Daniela Cambone

Very cool to see an intelligent, attractive woman actively participating in the PM Discussion.

ewc58 · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:35am

Daniela Cambone: Mama Mia!

That's the women you have, er, in mind there Big Hat... 

Yeah I scooped you again a couple days back, this time on Ms. Cambone and her marvelous "stage presence". And secondarily on that little debate thingy too. cool

Here's Peter Grandich's take (oddly though: no comment on Daniela!?):

GATA Slays The Dragon

While it’s abundantly clear what I think about GATA, I do think it’s also crystal clear that the main opponents to them, Jeff Christian and Jon Nadler share a common trait:

“Their arrogance and smugness to anyone who doesn’t agree with them is only surpassed by their horrific performance in forecasting precious metals prices.”

It’s important to note this view is not universal to anyone who doesn’t agree with GATA or has been very bearish on gold. Mr. Robert Prechter has been dead wrong on gold for almost a decade. But he’s a true gentleman and simply fits into a category we all do (including GATA principles), we put our pants on one leg at a time.

When I look at what seems like a battle between the world and GATA, I conclude the following:

1-I work in the world of professional athletes and sports teams. And in the end, winning is the only thing that matters. The fact is GATA has been right for nearly a decade on the direction of gold and silver while its most ardent opponents have stunk up the field.

2-The mainstream financial world and the media that follows it hates gold and will always hate gold. Financial assets make their world go around and a rising gold price does nothing to help those assets (which they need to keep buying and selling to make their livings off).

3-Many of GATA’s opponents are well-funded while GATA has survived on very limited funds. It must rarely bother their opponents that the kooks, nuts and tin-foil hat people are still even around.

Bill Murphy, Chris Powell and GATA have been a 21st Century style “David vs. Goliath” battle and like the famed Bible story, the good guys shall/have won the battle.

T · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:46am

Nice breakout strength SVM

SVM is the star miner today....but watch out now at this price level is resistance and the elliott wave count is looking like a wave 5 completion here....which suggests a pullback ....maybe to the 8-7.60 area

The time to buy SVM was at 7 and 6 I wouldnt touch it chance would be this pullback for a bargain at ....7.60 area something like that ...watching support trying to hold at 8 dollars ...If we get another slam downwave in the miners in the next few weeks, SVM will be interesting to watch and see how strong it is in this game,and what strength it demonstrates at 8 dollar area.

GoldMania3000 · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:46am

The kitco girls

i watch them every day..two girls. too much fun. it does make the PM interviews interesting. TURD can you add something like this

ewc58 · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:50am

Due to the length and format of the debate

Daniela was able to show the audience the biggest highlights immediately, up front.

RaRaRasputin · Oct 24, 2011 - 10:59am

David vs Goliath

I was thinking about the debate again this morning and that is exactly what I would liken it too. Will Bill's slaying stone be a gold or silver one?


Edited to add: although some deride the FT, Gillian Tett is IMHO definitely worth listening to. It's interesting here in the UK that the Money Week journal, although they have been pro-Gold for 10 years & now pro-Silver, they will not cover any of the manipulation stories. I don't know why, but it has always puzzled me. At least Gillian Tett is willing to discuss them in the UK mainstream financial media. 

question · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:11am

A Way Out?

Don't seem able to link but the article's on the front page @ Casey Research.

Interesting guy; sort of a Ron Paul light. I liked his views.

He's a very popular, two-term GOP governor. He attracts Independents and crossover Democrats alike. He has a smart plan how to get the US of the economic quagmire it's in. And he's being completed ignored by the mainstream media. Read what Gary Johnson has to say about the state of the union and what we can do to change it…

DeltaCharlie T · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:14am

@ Sheeple

RE: SVM... agree, would be cautious at this price level. Don't know about you, though, I'm seeing a HUGE reverse H&S pattern forming almost symmetrically.... next dip would be good entry point to see it rise to its mean (to about 12-12.50).

Bay of Pigs · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:16am

The Three Stooges

of the gold and silver markets are Jeff Christian, Jon Nadler and Dennis Gartman.

I have heard all three of them in person before. The only thing they have in common is that they are all smug, self centered, arrogant pricks, with very poor track records. I could list all their bad calls and quotes, but what's the use? 

The next leg up will prove them wrong once again. Good enough for me.

survivalwstyle · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:16am


whoa ~~ going to say they deserve this. lots of solid financial auditing, just as i hoped when i bought it in the 7's and 6's. nice liTTle birthday bounce. 1 buck or 12% early. would love to sEE this stock take out 10 and blast back to where it should be -- betwEEn 12-15 IMVFHO. 

love a nice bounce just as much as i like to touch hard aSSets!

¤ · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:21am

Germany sees EFSF above 1 trillion euros

Market Pulse Archives

Oct. 24, 2011, 11:01 a.m. EDT

Germany sees EFSF above 1 trillion euros: report

By MarketWatch

FRANKFURT (MarketWatch) -- Germany expects the euro zone's bailout fund to see its firepower leveraged to more than 1 trillion euros ($1.39 trillion), the Associated Press reported Monday, citing German opposition leaders who attended a briefing with Chancellor Angela Merkel. The measure comes as the 17-member euro zone attempts to find a way to boost the 440 billion euro European Financial Stability Facility's lending ability in order to help prevent the region's debt crisis from overwhelming Italy and Spain. Frank-Walter Steinmeier, parliamentary leader of the opposition Social Democrats, said leverage could be achieved through a combination of measures, including having the fund insure a portion of possible losses or involving the participation of entities such as the International Monetary Fund.

DeltaCharlie Bay of Pigs · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:22am

The Three Stooges - LOL.

all three of 'em are nothing more than agents of disinformation... anyone who used them as contrarian indicators have almost certainly profited handsomely. 

firstsilver · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:24am

Is Christian a lyin?

Jeff Christian makes for amusing video. Admittedly, he's a better debater than Murphy, who talks too fast trying to get all his info into a small time window. But at least Murphy can make a clear prediction.

Christian basically said that over the short term and long term, silver and gold could go up considerably, or down considerably. Likely both.

And, as noted previously in this thread, Christian is the epitome of arrogance. HE knows what's going on in the markets, but doesn't like it. You'd think a guy who KNOWS, could make better predictions.

I don't know if Christian believes the pap he's putting out, or whether he's a puppet for others. What I do know is that when Christian shows up at one of these debates, in the midst of a strong price gain for gold or silver, and proclaims the tree now will grow to the sky, that's your cue to get out.

¤ · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:25am


Oct. 24, 2011, 11:01 a.m. EDT

US pulls ambassador from Syria

By Val Brickates Kennedy

BOSTON (MarketWatch) -- The U.S. State Department has recalled its ambassador to Syria over concerns about his safety in that strife-ridden nation, Reuters reported Monday. Citing unnamed U.S. sources, Reuters said that Ambassador Robert Ford left Syria on Saturday following a series of threats and attacks by supporters of embattled Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. In August, U.S. President Barack Obama said that Assad should step down following a violent government crackdown on pro-democracy and anti-Assad protestors. In related news, Reuters also reported that the U.S. has no plans at this time to expel Syria's ambassador to the U.S., Imad Moustapha

¤ · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:30am

New debt instrument being considered

Treasury Eyes First New Debt Type Since TIPS

By Liz Capo McCormick - Oct 24, 2011 7:26 AM ET

The U.S., seeking to attract investors who might otherwise avoid Treasuries amid a $1.3 trillion budget deficit, is considering the sale of floating- rate notes in what would be its first new security since it began offering inflation-linked debt 14 years ago.

The Treasury Department said this month it asked Wall Street’s biggest bond dealers for recommendations on structuring securities with coupons that rise or fall with benchmark rates. Officials are scheduled to gather with the 22 primary dealers, who include Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and JPMorgan Chase & Co., on Oct. 28 as it decides whether to go further during their regular meeting that precedes each quarterly refunding.

While the government’s interest in offering a new type of bond may signal that it doesn’t expect deficits to diminish anytime soon, the securities would likely appeal to investors concerned that the Federal Reserve’s pledge to keep the federal funds rate at a record low through mid-2013 and other stimulus will spark inflation.

“It’s an opportunity for the Treasury to...

¤ · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:34am

$4 trillion -a-day currency market is signaling...

Strategists See Euro Decline Ending Q By Emma Charlton and Allison Bennett - Oct 24, 2011 8:02 AM ET

Foreign-exchange strategists have ceased cutting forecasts for the euro as European government officials intensify efforts to end the region’s crisis and traders pare bets for a collapse in the currency.

Between Sept. 12 and Oct. 6 the median year-end estimate of more than 40 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg tumbled to $1.35 from $1.43. It has ranged between $1.34 and $1.35 since then. The 17-nation currency, which closed at $1.3896 on Oct. 21, has strengthened 2.5 percent from last month’s low on Sept. 12 against a basket of developed-nation peers measured by Bloomberg Correlation-Weighted Indexes.

For all the concern that European officials led by German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy may not be able to fix the region’s sovereign debt crisis, the $4 trillion-a-day currency market is signaling that...

codematrix · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:34am

She's my cousin

She's my cousin on my mom's side. I'm going to send her a link to this site. I'm sure she'll appreciate all the comments :)

abguy4 · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:36am

What did she say?

What did she say?



Shill · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:36am

One thing is for certain, our

One thing is for certain, our markets are glorious.

silverbill · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:36am

"However, if it is widely

"However, if it is widely accepted that central banks actively manipulate the currency markets (interventions) and bond markets (QE), why is it so hard to believe that they "manage" the price of gold, too?"

Imo they manipulate much more than these, but that's my private rant.

backseatdriver · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:39am


That debate was hogwash. It was 32 minutes of my life I wish I had back. Jeff Christian is an apologist for GS, plain and simple. One strategy moving forward here to take to the bank that all of us can benefit from is one that Jim Rickards implores. 

"Best advice I can give you is to listen carefully to Goldman Sachs then do the opposite." Jim Rickards


Shill · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:40am

This market is setting up for

This market is setting up for a Shorts paradise. Keep those pumps on.

Eric Original · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:41am

"The bottom line is gold stocks are now very cheap"

An article on the miners from technical analyst Adam Hamilton. I get the sense that reviews of Hamilton's work have been mixed on this blog, but here it is.

WheelerSilver · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:45am

Bill was a ball of anxiety up there

Did Bill seem nervous to anyone else? Especialy when reading his opening statement. That skeevy little bank shill was trying so hard to discredit GATA instead of rebutting the allegations. What a clown. I agree with you Turd, they should have been able to duke it out without interruption from the moderators and for a longer time. And yes, that woman is hot. Glasses make it more so. whew.


~Handmade Quality Bullion~

Bay of Pigs · Oct 24, 2011 - 11:46am

Miss Daniela

I got an email from her awhile back when I wrote to complain and bash KITCO about continuing to have Nadler as their head ANALyst. She was very sweet and thanked me for my response. She's all good from my perspective. ;o)

In other news, Chipotle Grill over $340 a share now. LOL.

Glorious, right Shill?

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