Corporate Taxes

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Paladex
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Corporate Taxes

I have been rather surprised recently to learn that many Turdites believe the same thing: that corporate taxes are inevitably passed on to consumers. While I am against income tax in principle, I find this particular position troubling, particularly because almost every single person who made a comment about the corporate tax comment in my recent video used the exact same words. That is usually an indication of brainwashing. Somewhere, you all got programmed with the belief that there is no such thing as corporate tax, only costs that are passed on to consumers.

First of all, why do you think that corporations don't already charge the maximum price the market will bear for their goods and services? Isn't the law of pricing being determined by supply and demand the most immutable force of economics?

Secondly, corporations have - in the last few decades - assumed a host of enormous new expenses, such as hiring lobbyists, forming political action committees, and other blatant (and largely successful) attempts to bend public policy to their benefit. Why don't you object to those costs being passed on to consumers?

For many years, one of my main problems with the three major political parties - Democrat, Republican and Libertarian - is the degree to which they serve the corporate interests. I am surprised to see that the free-thinking Turdite community has swallowed hook, line and sinker the corporate propaganda that what's good for corporations is good for America.

Folks, big corporations are not your friend. The definition of fascism is "The corporate state." The definition of plutocracy is "Government by the wealthy." We are currently living under a system that is a combination of the two. In my mind, government and big business (including the banking industry) are two heads on the same monster.

Again, it's not that I'm in favor of raising corporate taxes (I'd rather see the entire income tax system thrown out and replaced with with one of the many excellent alternatives that have been suggested), I'm just troubled to see Turdites repeating the same corporate message in unison.

Edited by admin on 11/08/2014 - 06:23

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kenklave
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There is not necessarily an

There is not necessarily an orthodoxy, but it is significant to mderstand the purpose underlying the transaction. Taxes are paid by people. Corporations are fictions. It is irrelevant whose name and number is attacded to the 1040. When govt takes money from the corporation by taxing it, it is taking money from people. The profits could be returned to the business owners in dividends or the money could be reinvested in the company with capital improvements. The profits could be used to hire workers, improve salaries or reduce the cost to the end user of the product or service. All of these are good things which are stifled by taxation.

Corporations are not simply big piles of money with no ownership attached. I got the sense that you felt it was "fair" to tax corporations because they have money. That thought is pure socialism. If that is what you favor, that is find, but you must understand the sheer revulsion it causes in those who categorically reject that philosophy.

Now you say that corporations are not our friends, but sir, is not the govt the ultimate destroyer of our liberty? Why should we cede more power and authority to the govt? No corporation can force me to use it's product. No corporation can put me in jail or invade my home or confiscate my property. These abuses are strictly reserved to the state. Tell me which entity is a bigger threat?

My final comment is related. Taxes are by their nature arbitrary. And in the US today the tax code is used as a social engineering vehicle. It is one of the greatest weapons they have. It is the soft power of tyranny, to compel the citizens to act in the a desired way without violence. So how does one say that taxes should be higher on set of citizens? There is no righteousness in such a statement. It is made often by those who feel indignant that others have more. Mr. Paladex, if were the taxing authority and I declare your income tax to be 83%, who are you to argue. If I am the authority I make the rules. So in this dangerous paradigm, why would any feel comfortable acquiescing to this abuse against any fellow citizen? Sir I for one cannot abide it.

rassillon
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My POV is correct...NO MY POV is correct
 
I have been rather surprised recently to learn that many Turdites believe the same thing: that corporate taxes are inevitably passed on to consumers. While I am against income tax in principle, I find this particular position troubling, particularly because almost every single person who made a comment about the corporate tax comment in my recent video used the exact same words. That is usually an indication of brainwashing. Somewhere, you all got programmed with the belief that there is no such thing as corporate tax, only costs that are passed on to consumers.
 
I am not sure if you are trying to understand or just preach. Making the implication of "usually an indication" then the jump to "you all got programmed" will not open up minds.
 
 
 
First of all, why do you think that corporations don't already charge the maximum price the market will bear for their goods and services? Isn't the law of pricing being determined by supply and demand the most immutable force of economics?
 
Well... it us supposed to be if "supply" and "demand" are the only two components of an equation. However, corporations do not operate in the red for long and if you have a universal increase in cost of doing business ALL businesses will be forced to raise prices. If they don't raise prices they will eventually go out of business, thus reducing supply, thus raising prices.
 
It is not really as simple as this because the taxes etal deform the market and it would take time for a regular market to return if the influences were removed. However, think about it this way, if you could introduce a method to reduce the cost of production for ALL manufactures of a particular product, at some point prices would be lowered by at least one company to gain market share. The rest would follow to avoid losing market share thus bringing the price down.
 
 
Secondly, corporations have - in the last few decades - assumed a host of enormous new expenses, such as hiring lobbyists, forming political action committees, and other blatant (and largely successful) attempts to bend public policy to their benefit. Why don't you object to those costs being passed on to consumers?
 
Why do you assume "we" don't object to those as well? Contextually it would have seemed a non-sequitor to have made that comment in relation to your video.
 
 
 
For many years, one of my main problems with the three major political parties - Democrat, Republican and Libertarian - is the degree to which they serve the corporate interests. I am surprised to see that the free-thinking Turdite community has swallowed hook, line and sinker the corporate propaganda that what's good for corporations is good for America.
As a libertarian I fart in your general direction. Republican and Democrat, maybe. But if you look at the treatment of and makeup of the lawmakers and feel you can justify ranking Libertarian on equal footing I (in a bad french accent) shall taunt you another time!
 
 
Folks, big corporations are not your friend. The definition of fascism is "The corporate state." The definition of plutocracy is "Government by the wealthy." We are currently living under a system that is a combination of the two. In my mind, government and big business (including the banking industry) are two heads on the same monster.
Do you think you are talking to children? Or are you just being condescending?
 
<edit>Edited to add... Huh?
If you think that "government and big business.....are two heads on the same monster" why do you care which head of that monster has the money?
(not saying I don't think they are not the same monster)
</edit>
 
Again, it's not that I'm in favor of raising corporate taxes (I'd rather see the entire income tax system thrown out and replaced with with one of the many excellent alternatives that have been suggested), I'm just troubled to see Turdites repeating the same corporate message in unison.
I feel you have construed dislike of a "single point" into a much more generalized (off base I might add) political view. I believe that most who you call "programmed" feel similarly that the "entire income tax system" be thrown out.
 
If I understand correctly, you made the video to try and help other people understand what is going on. To do that effectively you need also to understand the audience. Here, I believe, you have instead of understanding or at least trying to, have allowed your  already-arrived-at conclusions cloud your view of the respondents comments.
 
Paladex
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Gentlemen, I apologize for the confrontational tone of my post. Brainwashing accusations was poor rhetorical technique (and bad manners).

I oppose the income tax system for all the reasons you've pointed out (and others). On that point, there is no argument. I only question why so many Turdites would jump to the defense of entities that are the enemy of every human being, just as surely as government is.

If you've never suffered at the hands of a soulless corporation - a health insurance company, a phone company, a bank - I envy you. The Randian ideal of businesses that operate ethically because it is in their own best interest has been entirely replaced by a culture of short-term profits at all costs. 

Corporations are non fictions. They are legal entities, designed to shield their owners from danger. That's why I incorporated my business. Even though I'm not planning on poisoning millions of people, supporting sweatshops, or committing any of the other atrocities routinely perpetrated by big business, the idea of personal impunity is highly attractive.

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Paladex
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Gentlemen, I apologize for the confrontational tone of my post. Brainwashing accusations was poor rhetorical technique (and bad manners).

I oppose the income tax system for all the reasons you've pointed out (and others). On that point, there is no argument. I only question why so many Turdites would jump to the defense of entities that are the enemy of every human being, just as surely as government is.

If you've never suffered at the hands of a soulless corporation - a health insurance company, a phone company, a bank - I envy you. The Randian ideal of businesses that operate ethically because it is in their own best interest has been entirely replaced by a culture of short-term profits at all costs. 

Corporations are non fictions. They are legal entities, designed to shield their owners from danger. That's why I incorporated my business. Even though I'm not planning on poisoning millions of people, supporting sweatshops, or committing any of the other atrocities routinely perpetrated by big business, the idea of personal impunity is highly attractive.

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To put it another way: let's say the income tax was replaced with a flat tax or consumption tax. Would you use the same taxes-increase-prices argument to propose that the tax should only be paid by individuals, and that corporations should be exempt?

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rassillon
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Discussion is good!

I am reposting something in my previous post.

....think about it this way, if you could introduce a method to reduce the cost of production for ALL manufactures of a particular product, at some point prices would be lowered by at least one company to gain market share. The rest would follow to avoid losing market share thus bringing the price down.

Additionally, a flat tax and a consumption tax are structurally very different.

Instead of attempting to tax corporations which just causes them to spend more on tax lawyers or keep funds off-shore, or a multitude of other tax evasive measures most of which keep prices high and cause profit on investment for shareholders from being distributed. I would suggest removing the numerous onerous regulations which benefit large corporations by crushing smaller competition because they don't benefit from the economy of scale. Thus large corporations can keep prices higher without fear of competition.

Again from my previous response.... If you think Corporations and Government are two heads of the same beast, why do you feel taking money from one head and giving it to the other head would benefit the individual?

Paladex
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Well, when you put it that way ...

rassillon wrote:
Instead of attempting to tax corporations which just causes them to spend more on tax lawyers or keep funds off-shore, or a multitude of other tax evasive measures most of which keep prices high and cause profit on investment for shareholders from being distributed. I would suggest removing the numerous onerous regulations which benefit large corporations by crushing smaller competition because they don't benefit from the economy of scale ... If you think Corporations and Government are two heads of the same beast, why do you feel taking money from one head and giving it to the other head would benefit the individual?

By God, I think you've bested me. Very well said! Although crony capitalism makes the regulatory reform you suggest impossible, your point about tax evasion is spot on. In other words, what you're saying is that only corporations too weak to participate in cronyism pay corporate tax. If that IS what you're saying, I have no rebuttal, and concede defeat.

Well done, Rassillon. My hat's off to you.

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Yes, if you look at some

Yes, if you look at some markets, it is just impossible for a new entrant because of all the regulatory hurdles and the inability to avoid taxes thus making the venture unprofitable. BigCorp likes this!

I certainly hope the kind of reform I speak of is not impossible, otherwise we are screwed. I hope instead that it will get painful enough that at some point we will have a revolution (hopefully peaceful) and large corporations will lose their protection. I fear that the public may be too weak and opt for a Saviour a la Fascism. 20 years down the road Obama would have been just that IMO.

Paladex, I hold in common many of your concerns and distaste of corporations. I feel we probably agree on things more than either thinks. I want to applaud you on the integrity you have shown in our little exchange of ideas. You unfortunately have more integrity, it seems, than most who "claim" to represent us.    

Paladex
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I appreciate your gracious

I appreciate your gracious words.

I would be most interested to hear your thoughts on some other topics. I hope you will comment on my future posts, and I will certainly keep an eye out for yours.

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kenklave
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Palaces, may I ask you why

Palaces, may I ask you why you want to tax corporations? Also, I have seen your video on 3-4 other sites. That is pretty cool. I get kind of excited when I see it, I can imagine you are even more thrilled. Keep up the good work.

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