GATA vs The Evil Empire

So there was this "debate" back on Friday...

First of all, I despise staged-for-public-consumption "debates". The format allows for nothing but simple, talking point regurgitation and rarely are the presenters allowed to confront/refute the contentions of their opponent. One guy can say something outrageous like "and unlike my bed-wetting opponent, I don't endorse legalized heroin distribution and beastiality". The "opponent" is likely so focused on what talking point he's going to spew next that he didn't even hear the charges made against him and the "moderator" simply wants to move onto the next question anyway. Thereby, the charges are left hanging in the air and the viewer is left with the impression that "maybe that one guy really is a nervous, dog-humping junkie".

And so, last Friday, one of these "debates" took place at an event called "The Silver Summit" in Spokane, Washington. The "opponents" were Bill Murphy of GATA and Jeff Christian of the CPM Group. I think by now you aware of which side of the manipulation debate I fall on. However, in the spirit of full disclosure and free information, I present below the entire debate. A few caveats before you watch:

1) As described above, the format stinks. There should have been more free interaction between Bill and Jeff.

2) It's only 30 minutes long. This should easily have been at least 90 minutes. 

3) The highlight of the entire video might just be the blonde that introduces it. Talk about hard assets!

4) As much as you might hope/pray, Bill never once sprints at Jeff and takes him down AFL-style. How he controlled the temptation to do so is beyond me.

OK, now some follow-up. First, Chris Powell adds some clarity:

http://www.gata.org/node/10596

Peter Grandich weighs in:

http://www.grandich.com/2011/10/gata-slays-the-dragon/

And then there's this from the FT, too:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/90effa18-faa3-11e0-8fe7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1bgxtJNIf

At the end of the day, you can believe what you choose to believe. However, if it is widely accepted that central banks actively manipulate the currency markets (interventions) and bond markets (QE), why is it so hard to believe that they "manage" the price of gold, too?

Have a great Monday. TF

Comments

Ferd Torgerson's picture

@ RaRa Rasputin Insurance Costs

Your comments on insurance and its costs in the pod-cast thread touch on a sore point for my wife and me.

I don’t get to watch a lot of BBC broadcasting but, from what I have seen, it appears to be relatively commercial free.  Not so here in the USA.  Networks have continuously trimmed back minutes devoted to content in favor of more commercials.

Much of those commercial minutes are devoted to slick, lengthy ads for prescription drugs.  These ads are designed to motivate the infirm and the hypochondriac to ask their doctor if such and such a drug would help them.  These ads cost millions to produce and broadcast endlessly.  How is the airtime paid for?  By tacking the cost onto the cost of the drug.  Add this to the additional demand generated for the drug by the ads, and the price goes up even more.  

But the cost doesn’t stop there.  If you’ve seen our drug ads, they are always accompanied by warnings such as “rare but sometimes fatal side effects such as stroke, seizure, compulsion to own precious metals”, etc.  OK, was only kidding about the PM part.  In any event, there are apparently enough side effects to maintain a cottage industry of trial attorneys who make their living suing drug companies and doctors over the ill-effects of prescription drugs.  When these suits lead to large settlements, that cost has to be paid for somewhere.  Where?  For the drug companies it’s added to the cost of the drug.  For the doctor, it’s covered in mal-practice insurance.  They add this cost to their fees.  In turn, the cost of the drugs, the ads, the large settlements and the mal-practice insurance gets passed on to the health insurance provider.  Who pays in the end?  The consumer pays in the form of higher premiums.  Not sure you have the vicious circle described above in Great Britain.  You’d think that if Congress was worth the money they were paid, they might address this situation.   Nope, we just need to have the government take over all aspects of health care.  And, I guess that the hefty campaign contributions from drug companies and attorneys lobbies help them justify putting off doing anything really constructive.

A similar situation applies to property and casualty insurance.  I don’t recall Britain experiencing much in the way of property damage since the Blitz until the recent riots by mobs of moronic teens.  Don’t believe you have hurricanes, tornados, windstorms, droughts, massive forest fires, floods, etc., to the extent we do.  And, as another poster mentioned, some of us like to build our homes on cliffs and in areas likely to flood.  That will add to insurance premiums.  But, wait, there’s more.  If you’re not happy with your settlement if your home got washed away, there’s the friendly attorney on the big screen tv telling you that they’ll help you get MORE.  The cost of class action settlements and litigating them get factored into the premiums and passed to the consumer.

I’d appreciate hearing your observations on how this all works in Great Britain.  I may be wrong, but I believe that many of the high insurance costs we suffer in the US are partly self-inflicted by our tolerance for allowing drug companies and plaintiffs attorneys to flood our airways with self-serving tripe.  Maybe that's the price we pay for less government control over the media.

Shill's picture

Added SRTY to my assortment

Added SRTY to my assortment of losing shorts.

I love a bargain.

T's picture

Another look at SVM

OK.... my first look today at SVM didnt do it justice.  SVM deserves a very serious examination now.

TomL   ........ look at all the indicators and Moving averages in both weekly and daily charts,and the support/resistances zones, and all the technical stuff  we look at .....SVM is really interesting  right now.

So many things to see here.

Yes, that reverse head and shoulders, yes, ita a clear breakout, in fact two layers of breakout....but still could see a pullback to at least  try to retest the 8 - 8.40 area   (There is that big Gap to fill between 8.70 and 8.30 ) (I'm seeing price points  in the 50% formula that  look like  a top of 9.80,  a bottom of 7.20 , and a target of 8.50 in the middle now)

The breakout ,with the positive news  does look  like it has strength.

But there is significant resistance at the 144 MA right at 10.00....the 200 MA is around 10.60

There is a clear support line across the 9 dollar zone. The Daily  Moving average lines  in relation to the Weekly Moving average lines are very interesting.   Just start with the 144 MA on both.... the daily is resistance overhead at 10.00 but the weekly  is support ,and a pullback target at 7.42.

Lots of magnetic  energy   inside this range/zone 

The soaring move up today was impressive but the  candle has pulled back with a decent spike now

The next upside target   after this is the 12 area. thats a little far away still....

There would be time for price to pullback from here.  Maybe the next few days will see price bounce off the 10.00 resistance a few times and failing  to break thru it, falls back in correction to retest the 9 and 8 areas.

But so many technical things to see here. It does look like a 5 wave  structure completing here,which also suggests an ABC pullback in the coming days.  

one last thing....the indicators RSI and Stoch are Not overbought   on both the weekly and daily charts.....   They bounced off the 50 on the daily and are nearing the 50 on the weekly. 

Its hard to keep technical analysis simple ,with so much to see, but  the indicators  could be telling of more room for this puppy to run  higher,before it makes the pullback .  But I would not chase it now.  I'd wait for whatever pullback we get ....below 9,closer to 8.30..... and it looks like the gift bargain is now 8. It used to be 7 and 6.

Shill's picture

This is too easy.FedEx cuts

This is too easy.

FedEx cuts 1700 freight-unit jobs | Employment News

(Note the link is 2010 just incase your wondering.)

FEDex stock up 2.25%

indosil's picture

subdued gold & silver

base metals & crude oil on fire..courtesy Hopium from Europe...QE basically..but Gold & Silver non performers..cartel at work??

Shill's picture

Add another state revenue

Add another state revenue shortfall to the pile....

http://pa.gov/portal/server.pt/document/1204816/2011_09_mrr_pdf

General Fund collections of $2,323.0 million for the
month of September were $151.8 million, or 6.1%,
below the official estimate. Fiscal year 2011-12 collections
of $5,849.1 million were below the official estimate
by $215.0 million, or 3.5%.

In the last 2-3 hours, Dow has been flat. It's funny how "investors" decided to buy all morning but suddenly, they decided not to do anything in the last few hours funny that. Volume is so thin it's translucent...

Again take your profits if  you have any, you will be glad you did.

Dr G's picture

I don't have the time right

I don't have the time right now to read all of the comments, but what is going on with this huge move in Dr. C today? Sheesh, big rally there. That could bode well for the metals action, me thinks.

Shill's picture

Enjoy your day all, errands

Enjoy your day all, errands to run. signing out.

be well.

DrkPurpleHaze's picture

oil price action today

This is more then the Libya news about some oil field.

It appears to be a risk thing concerning MENA.   Obviously lots of negative things have been building up over there. My guess is it has to do with that more so then the POSX right now.

Orange's picture

Breaking CNBS

Fed. Dudley, says possibility of QE3.

Should be interesting to see PM's react. Crude up over $4.

Dr G's picture

@DPH Oil AND copper leading

@DPH

Oil AND copper leading the charge for our next leg up? Tomorrow and Wed will be key, we shall see what the action is there. Hopefully enough movement to minimize any downdrafts that might occur, and give us higher closes than last week.

ewc58's picture

Sounds damn good to me Jeb

Jeb Handwerger: Gold, Silver, and Miners About to Reverse Higher

by babybulltwits

GoldStockTrades.com - Do not be in anyway daunted by this recent correction and volatility in gold, silver and the miners.  The upward ascent in the precious metals drama requires not only patience, but the awareness that 20-30% pullbacks in bullion are characteristic and frequent.  One should’ve been prepared for short term downward moves in precious metals, which we have recently witnessed as gold exceeded overhead resistance in early August.

We are on the verge of The Fed implementing some form of stimulus in order to revive an economy which is undergoing cardiac arrest.  It matters not how the Central Banks disguises this shibboleth.  The important instrument is the application of a kind of defibrillator to jumpstart a moribund economy, which will serve to revive patients on both sides of the Atlantic...for the time being.  This will not be a permanent thing, there will be more stimulus down the road.

Read More

Shill's picture

Fed. Dudley, says possibility

Fed. Dudley, says possibility of QE3.

The S&P seems to have broken out of its range on a combination of factors: the public relations campaign of EU, earnings, baseless hype about Christmas consumption and the well-timed rumors emanating from the Fed about the certainty of QE3.

Oil and gold seem to have heard that last message loud and clear.

The Fed isn't satisfied with 3.8 percent headline inflation because it doesn't' do enough to decrease the value of debt on the balance sheets of banks. And of course, inflation will devalue US national debt as well.

Middle class consumers will get crushed of course, but what else is new? QE2 commodity inflation derailed what little recovery was in the making and flat lined the economy.

The intended "wealth effect" from QE2 (i.e., an equity bubble) busted as soon as the bond buying stopped and never materialized into renewed consumption. But don't let facts get in the way. Let's do it again!

Ok I am being yelled at now lol!...later

Tecumseh's picture

I don't get it.

exiledbear--you wrote:

"I mean really, would you take a bunch of men who wear dresses and molest little boys - how seriously would you take them? What level of credibility would you give them?"

Why belittle the traditional attire of the leadership of the Roman Catholic faith?

How many of these leaders have molested anyone, much less little boys?

If you, yourself, were the victim of a priest's criminal assaults, you have my sympathy.  But, unless you know that the Pope or any of his subordinate leadership committed such crimes, then you really should not promote lies about them.  The fact that some small percentage of priests are criminals does not mean that all are.  That is like saying that "exiledbear is an idiot so all posters on TFMR are idiots."  Get it?

Finally, why is it that all the tough guys like to attack Christians and Christianity, but none is willing to step up and publicly attack Islam?  Remember, Islam was founded by Mohammed (which is why it truly is Mohammedism) who, during his years of creating this religion, took a six year old girl as his wife and consummated the marriage when she was only nine.  Moreover, most traditional Muslim men wear clothing much like the tough guys like to describe as "dresses."  In addition, while the Catholic Church and Christianity more generally is the most tolerant institution of religion imaginable (after all, forgiveness of even heinous acts is at the core of the faith), Islam is the least tolerant (prescribing death for such heinous acts as adultery).  So, where are all the tough guys when they are not out bullying a cheek-turning Christian? 

ewc58's picture

Dr. C is paging Dr G

fut_image.ashx?hg.png&rev=63455061901578

Sketcher's picture

The Vatican

Why would we be surprised that they back a one-world banking system...  a step before a one-world government...  NWO.   It's a sick institution and, for me, has nothing to do with being Christian.

ewc58's picture

Not sure why YT vids aren't opening in the text box lately

Right click on the link and Open in New Tab so you don't have to leave Town....

It's the series of classic "Lost Stills" from the movie The Hangover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zLO70NN9iz4

T's picture

I love analysis

.... but anybody who uses the words 'shibboleth'  and  'moribund' in the same paragraph  ...uhh...is ....just tryin too hard

Economical Disaster's picture

@Tecumseh

The POPE allowed the molestations for many many years! THEY knew it was happening. I had a friend who joined the priesthood and had to QUIT because of the huge amount of pedophiles he witnessed. He was disgusted, they were all gay and freaks. My wife's sister's  minister, married with 3 kids, was caught diddling a child. The church should be closed in my opinion.

ewc58's picture

Murphy/Christian: It's gettin' personal

My fiat is SO on Billy!

GATA gold/silver suppression spat with Jeff Christian getting personal

The war of words between GATA and CPM's Jeff Christian is getting increasingly bitter coming to a head after a debate at the Silver Summit conference in Spokane (Link to video of the debate attached).

Author: Lawrence Williams
Posted:  Sunday , 23 Oct 2011

 

The war of words between the Gold Anti Trust Action Comittee, GATA, and CPM Group managing director and founder Jeff Christian seems to be escalating.  First Christian accused GATA in an interview as "a group that makes money by basically bilking gold investors out of fees to support GATA so they don't have to get legitimate jobs."  And most recently, after a debate between Bill Murphy of GATA and Christian at the Silver Summit meeting in Spokane, GATA secretary Chris Powell accused Christian of "graduating from his usual distortions to outright contrivance."

There is obviously little love lost between GATA and Christian.  The former is convinced that Governments, Central Banks and their banking sector allies and some major gold mining companies are, or have been, complicit in suppressing the global price of gold, whereas Christian is firmly on the side of the status quo which disputes this.

Contd.

NW VIEW's picture

THE WAY TO GET IT

(1).  Buy a copy of Church History by Andrew Miller and read it.

(2).  Move those revelations of truth to a forum.

exiledbear's picture

I think that's what China calls everyone who isn't them

One might return the name calling and call them "greedy and unscrupulous".

Bsong's picture

DR. C for DR. G

I read something this morning that Chinas economic cooling numbers from the last reporting month reversed in the current report, suggesting growth.

Economical Disaster's picture

The Real Reason Why Gadaffi Was Killed & Why We're In Libya

GOLD.......................

FriedEggs's picture

I dont

believe Gadhafi is even dead. 

.

Fried(e)

backseatdriver's picture

EconDisas

Extremely sad. So the "axis of evil" Gadaffi, Chavez and JungIll are all being taken out one by one for their AU. I wonder if its coincidence that they dont participate in global central banking agendas, hmmmm? Deduction says NKorea should start getting some play on the MSM. 

BSD

DrkPurpleHaze's picture

Turks idea

I would like to thank him for basically establishing my gold/dow concept this weekend with his CB vision. 

He uses a direct establishment by the CB for a fixed price much higher then now which makes the most simple sense. I used a sliding scale based on the dow action at a higher ratio to give the debt ceiling more height and the ability for the price to be steered higher by the market actions and "other forces" as it is now.

QE and POMO etc . will always be here and in the future also. If the gold to dow were established it would be even more so. If they (Fed.) fix the price of gold they are stuck to a certain number going forward and debt ceiling height and the ability to borrow even further. As they lube the dow with more QE the price of gold goes up thus creating more room for expansion monetarily.

A self-oiling QE /gold price machine is what it would be.  Turks numbers are too small for his concept.

If the U.S comes out tomorrow and says their gold is valued at $44 for the foreseeable future, we would all be screwed and gold would tumble I think in some meaningful way.

If the U.S. tied the price of gold to something or just declared a revaluation of their gold holdings to some huge number then gold would jump appreciably I suspect also. What if they tied it a  10x to dow ratio (for cushion and expansion/contraction of money supply and strength) and let it slide according to the market? Think of the potential upside and speculation on gold and what it would do to the upward price.

My concept is just that, a concept. Something drastic will need to happen at some point going forward to make this happen. It seems we may be  at that moment as the trust in bonds themselves are in doubt. FRN's to follow shortly I think after the Euro.

Is it so far fetched to think that a return to a non-redeemable GLD/FRN system could be put in place when the entire planet just used a non gold backed greenback for the last 60+ years and it's still going strong?

If the U.S. Treasury or Fed make some announcement someday and Congress backs the proposal it's a done deal and the rest of the planet will still follow our dollar if it's thought the entire nations gold supply was being used to back stop it...non -redeemably of course, just in additional  fiat like Blythe pays to the people who don't hold for delivery at O/E

Think about that.

Does it seem so impossible? What would be the difference from what's already taking place? GLD has successfully proven you can take in  many, many BILLIONS of USD for a fractionalized paper gold supply.

Just imagine if the U.S./Fed did so. Think about the Blythe thing and non-redemption.

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